From the Mailbag
As you know, I have had my share of issues with Paypal recently, and
while I appreciate the effort they made to do the right thing in our
case, I still have a lot of misgivings about them as a company.
This e-mail didn’t help.
Dear Helen Killer,
I love your site and was thrilled to hear of your “win” against PayPal. I recently had a heartbreaking experience of my own with them.
I sold an old French violin to a buyer in Canada, and the buyer disputed the label.
This is not uncommon. In the violin market, labels often mean little and there is often disagreement over them. Some of the most expensive violins in the world have disputed labels, but they are works of art nonetheless.
Rather than have the violin returned to me, PayPal made the buyer DESTROY the violin in order to get his money back. They somehow deemed the violin as “counterfeit” even though there is no such thing in the violin world.
The buyer was proud of himself, so he sent me a photo of the destroyed violin.
I am now out a violin that made it through WWII as well as $2500. This is of course, upsetting. But my main goal in writing to you is to prevent PayPal from ordering the destruction of violins and other antiquities that they know nothing about. It is beyond me why PayPal simply didn’t have the violin returned to me.
I spoke on the phone to numerous reps from PayPal who 100% defended their action and gave me the party line.
Erica
I forwarded this e-mail to my contact at Paypal several days ago. They have not replied.
UPDATE: I neglected to mention in the original post that the violin was examined and authenticated by a top luthier prior to its sale.
UPDATE 2: Thanks to sharp-eyed reader Mr. Pete, who found this paragraph in Paypal’s Terms of Service:
UPDATE 3: Paypal has advised that they are now looking into the matter.
January 3, 2012 at 2:02 pm
Wow. Once again, so very glad I deleted my paypal account. I will NEVER go back.
January 3, 2012 at 2:10 pm
I’m STILL being told I can’t cancel. I am seriously so fucking over this bullshit.
January 3, 2012 at 11:18 pm
Deleted my Paypal account. This is simply the last straw. What bloody ignorant bastards.
January 3, 2012 at 7:26 pm
I have no words for this, except for the fact that I cancelled my merchant account after I heard the last major debacle.
I do have to say though, the evil is not all Paypal: 1. I did not see any mentioning Paypal require photographic evidence the object is truly destroyed to get the fraud refund; actually, when I used to do Paypal transactions (by that I meant briefly working for them,) I have dealt with numerous fraud cases, and never in my memory have I asked the buyer to destroy the merchandise before issuing a fraud refund. 2. EVEN if that is the case, if I suspect of fraud, I would have just kept the item, find some way to generate a fake picture so I can send in and get a my money back and still keep something on hand. This is a spite of a very petty man, aka the buyer.
January 3, 2012 at 7:33 pm
No, they may ask for photographic proof: http://cms.paypal.com/al/cgi-bin/?cmd=_render-content&content_ID=ua/BuyerProtComp_full
January 3, 2012 at 7:47 pm
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
January 3, 2012 at 7:51 pm
Okay. I stand corrected. I do see that one sentence “PayPal may also require you to destroy the item and to provide evidence of its destruction.”
January 3, 2012 at 9:25 pm
Ihave never really used Fuck(you)Pal, so I have a question about the “buyer potection” thing. Is this something that you’re “enrolled” in automatically? Or is it something you have to “agree” to? Because, FyP is a third party, and has no way of authenticationg ANYTHING, nor, does it seems to me, that they have the right to demand that someone destroy property that they have not paid for,and that the seller can’t replace, especially if they aren’t given any options.
January 3, 2012 at 8:49 pm
I have also been ripped off by paypal in this manner. I sold some Frank Miller books and the buyer sent me some her random books back and claimed I ripped her off. So she kept the nice books and got her money back. I told Paypal she sent me back crap books but nada.
I bought my viola from my teacher who bought it from her teacher. Who knows how old it is? What I do know is that the person that smashed this violin is trash and so is Paypal.
January 4, 2012 at 3:43 am
I know Joshua Bells agent, and have already sent this article to her.
I am traumatized beyo9nd belief.
January 4, 2012 at 3:44 am
and apparently that causes me to not be able to type.
January 4, 2012 at 7:20 am
Dropped mine.No longer associate with Poo Pal.
January 4, 2012 at 7:20 am
PayPal constantly allows people to buy my software then create a “Claim” to get their cash back. This happens about twice a month.
The last time this happened, someone bought and activated my software then I had the “paypal claim” in my email 2minutes after the payment notification email. The buyer was clearly the authorized party in this situation.
I supplied IP address and hard drive serial number and PayPal still let them rip me off.
January 4, 2012 at 11:58 am
Sounds like a good use for small claims court, if they’re in the US somewhere.
January 4, 2012 at 8:01 am
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
January 4, 2012 at 10:01 am
And this makes what they did okay HOW? The violin was appraised by a top luthier prior to its sale.
January 4, 2012 at 12:51 pm
I’m sorry, WHAT? “The Seller should have disclosed that the label wasn’t accurate?” I thought the whole point was that it WAS accurate, as verified before it was sold.
You can’t pin this on the Seller for not reading TOS clearly enough- they did everything they were supposed to going off the information they had, which is that the violin is NOT counterfeit.
January 4, 2012 at 1:30 pm
Bullshit. Quick straw poll – how many paypal users have waded through their mystifying terms of service from beginning to end? I know I haven’t. I haven’t lived long enough yet.
Besides you’re missing the point.
a) She states that she has had the item authenticated
and
b) Even if it was not as described, it still wasn’t counterfeit. It’s still a bloody antique violin. Every violin you see online is described as ‘labeled as xxx make’ not ‘this is a xxx make’ because mislabelling was so common. Any buyer would KNOW that. Apart from Douchey Doucherson here, apparently.
January 3, 2012 at 2:03 pm
As a student of Violin, my heart weeps for the loss of such an exquisite instrument.
SHAME on PayPal for instructing the senseless destruction of something so beautiful.
FUCK PAYPAL
January 3, 2012 at 2:04 pm
As usual, PayPal once again super-fucks things up. Destroy an antique which they know NOTHING about? What an absolute waste. And how horrible.
January 3, 2012 at 2:10 pm
I’m already feeling Rage-O-Holic…
DON’T MAKE ME SHANK A BITCH BECAUSE IT SURE AS HELL WON’T BE WITH SWEETNESS!!!
That’s it… someone aim me to the PayPal offices because these hands are about to get BITCHY!
January 3, 2012 at 8:25 pm
“It’s true… I’m a rageaholic! I just can’t live without rageahol!” -Homer Simpson
January 3, 2012 at 2:26 pm
hippiejo, I hope you don’t mind, I used your comment as a header when I shared this post on my Facebook page.
January 3, 2012 at 2:27 pm
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
January 3, 2012 at 7:33 pm
Even worse, this scheme of PayPal’s makes a great way to perpetuate fraud. Want to swap the fake Vuitton bag you bought on Canal Street for a real one? Just buy that real one on eBay, pay through PayPal and report the ‘fake’!
January 3, 2012 at 8:42 pm
People have done that to honest sellers of luxury handbags over on Ebay.
January 4, 2012 at 7:12 am
It’s all over eBay from electronics to jewelry; I wouldn’t sell anything more valuable than a needlework chart there.
January 3, 2012 at 9:04 pm
1)So buy a $2400 violin
2)claim it’s a fraud to PayPal so they tell you to destroy it…
3)Destroy old student violin and show pictures to PayPal…
4)Keep expensive violin AND refund! PROFIT!
Fuck you again, PayPal
January 3, 2012 at 2:08 pm
Hell, as a history student, that makes me sick. I have literal tears. Fuck everything about this. I can’t believe someone would pay $2500 for a violin and be the same kind of person who would destroy it.
January 3, 2012 at 2:13 pm
It’s proof that money can’t buy class…
January 3, 2012 at 2:20 pm
You would assume that someone who knows enough about violins to pay over 2grand for one would never be able to do this. But that assumption is made on the basis that even the scummiest human specimens have just a shred of sense or decency which is clearly incorrect.
January 3, 2012 at 2:34 pm
Some people just have money to throw away and no brains to think about what to spend it on…
January 3, 2012 at 2:54 pm
This brings to mind 2 questions. 1. Why would you spend that kind of money on a violin if you obviously don’t have two brain cells to rub together to know whether or not it’s worth that much? 2. How would FuckPal KNNOW that you’d actually destroyed it?
This sounds like some kind of scam between the buyer and FP, but I can’t figure out what it could be….
January 3, 2012 at 4:56 pm
Before I even started reading this, I looked at the picture and the exact words out of my mouth were “Is that a violin? Oh god, please tell me that’s not a violin…”
Seriously, as a violinist and a history student and the owner of a 100+ year old violin passed down from my great grandfather… This is like Paypal pissed all over Christmas and now they and this buyer took a dump on my doorstep.
I can only assume the ass who bought this has money to blow and either watches Antique Roadshow or has a kid who started playing violin or something equally stupid to have put it into their mind “It would be SO cool to own an antique violin” without actually having any knowledge of what they looking to buy. Sort of like the people who think it’d be a great idea to get their kids a puppy for Christmas, and then two weeks later after the puppy has chewed through everything in the house, they send it back to the shelter.
Why, oh, why can’t people respect stuff like this?
January 4, 2012 at 6:05 am
That picture literally made me short of breath, and I’m not even asthmatic/prone to panic attacks.
January 4, 2012 at 12:17 pm
This is why we can’t have nice things.
January 3, 2012 at 2:11 pm
As a lover of violin (not coordinated enough to play myself) I don’t know whether to cry or throw up. The buyer must be fuckin’ bananas, or has no respect for anything ever, to completely destroy an antique instrument of any kind.
January 3, 2012 at 2:13 pm
And may the proud buyer rot in Hades’ company for destroying it!!!!! What a fuck!
January 3, 2012 at 2:17 pm
WHY?!?
Why on the bright lady’s green earth did they have to -destroy- it, especially when —the seller was wiling to accept it back?—
That’s the part that gets me. The letter writer was willing to take it back – this was ALL on paypal.
Because they thought it was a counterfeit? What evidence did they have besides the buyers word? Did they consult any expert? Did any of them know a goddamn thing about Violins?
Considering the fact that the buyer was wiling to destroy a violin at all, means he’s a very questionable source of information. Certainly not a neutral third-party expert.
Even without a certain label, a well-crafted violin is still extremely expensive.
For those curious about the origin of the label: http://musicaviva.com/encyclopedia/display.html?phrase=bourguignon-maurice
January 3, 2012 at 2:18 pm
Totally agreed. I’ve been playing violin since I was 7 years old. My violin has a Strad label, which obviously it’s not, but closest I was able to find out is that it was German factory-made in the late 1800′s. Labels are always suspect and this is total BS on PayPal’s part.
January 3, 2012 at 6:25 pm
I have a 125 year old German-made cello that was restored by my cello teacher’s luthier husband. The label inside says “copy of Stradivarius”
January 4, 2012 at 2:18 am
Many violins say ‘copy of Stradivarius’ – it means they based the shape of the violin off a Strad. But it does sound like a lovely cello – we had some violins pass through here from 1910-20, German factory made, mostly for the National Violin School in the US (so were sent to Ohio while they were white), and they were beautiful to listen to.
My husband’s ‘best’ violin cost $2000 about ten years ago, an early 1800s Strad copy… I can’t imagine his reaction if someone did this. Come to that, I can’t imagine MY reaction. I think ‘crying for ten days’ would vie with ‘homicidal rage’. It really is unbelievable on the part of both the buyer and Paypal. It’s the loss of an irreplaceable musical instrument. Each violin is unique. Sorry, I’m burbling from shock. Erica, I’m just so sorry that this has happened. Princess Buzzkill, cherish your lovely cello.
January 4, 2012 at 8:26 am
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
January 4, 2012 at 1:37 pm
This was a joke guys… Srsly.
January 3, 2012 at 3:23 pm
Can we get “FUCK PAYPAL” on a t-shirt, please?
January 3, 2012 at 5:25 pm
Keep calm and fuck PayPal.
January 3, 2012 at 6:48 pm
It was the media response driven by fat jealous losers that made paypill change their ways last time; anyone who helped make that happen last time make it happen again – hit the blogs, email the media, twitfuck them hard, etc.
As a PR exec (insert insult here) I can’t believe they keep doing this to themselves
January 3, 2012 at 8:45 pm
Yes, but you’re our PR expert
.
January 3, 2012 at 8:14 pm
I would do this, but do they have any legal recourse against me if I do? I don’t want to get shut down…
January 3, 2012 at 8:30 pm
A Sampler would be nice too, FUCK PAYPAL over cross stitch of a destroyed antique violin.
January 3, 2012 at 10:32 pm
I feel sick
I wish there was a way to get the name of that “buyer” and blast it to the world, so that hopefully no one will ever sell him anything of value again.
January 4, 2012 at 1:48 am
My husband repairs violins and sells them on eBay. I don’t think I can show him this post. He isn’t allowed to have a heart attack until he finishes painting the house.
(And I love him, but I also really don’t want to have to paint the house myself.)
January 4, 2012 at 2:59 am
But you’ll keep it on file for when he really gets on your tits?
January 4, 2012 at 11:02 am
Mine does, too. My grandfather’s old violin – now nearly 100 years old – is hanging on my mother’s wall. I’d be heartbroken if it was destroyed, especially in such a deliberate and heartless manner.
January 3, 2012 at 2:03 pm
That is vile. How is that an acceptable course of action on behalf of the buyer?
January 3, 2012 at 2:13 pm
WHY would you, as a buyer, DO it??? WTF?? Send it back, and the seller will refund……WHY WHY WHY????
January 3, 2012 at 2:31 pm
I don’t get it.
Hey PayPal, should I return the disputed merch to the seller and get a refund?
PayPal: What are you? A moron? To process your refund: Smash the shit outta that thing. Also pee on the seller’s grandma’s grave.
January 3, 2012 at 2:03 pm
This is beyond sickening.
January 3, 2012 at 2:38 pm
I agree. This is the first photo on Regretsy that has ever honestly turned my stomach.
January 3, 2012 at 2:42 pm
Twenty minutes later, my stomach still hurts.
January 3, 2012 at 7:27 pm
I’ve been in labor since 5:30 sunday morning, and when I saw the photo, my stomach hurt just as much as my contracting uterus!
January 3, 2012 at 8:03 pm
Best of luck to you and your little one!
January 3, 2012 at 8:06 pm
Agreed. And this is fucking Regretsy; There are some fucked up things on this site.
January 3, 2012 at 4:12 pm
I have nothing witty to say…I saw the photo and literally stopped breathing.
January 3, 2012 at 2:03 pm
Absolutely disgraceful!!
January 3, 2012 at 2:04 pm
This makes me so nauseous
January 3, 2012 at 2:17 pm
I’m vacillating between tears and head-flaming fury.
January 3, 2012 at 2:04 pm
I just had to read this three times and sat here for five minutes with my mouth hanging open before I could even begin to type. That’s INSANE.
January 3, 2012 at 2:04 pm
This makes me feel physically ill. How can people have so little respect for art, history and music? Not just the ass hats at paypal, but the tool who was dumb enough to carryout their orders.
January 3, 2012 at 2:05 pm
Yes, the buyer was pure scum.
January 3, 2012 at 2:08 pm
Exactly what I thought. I haven’t played a violin since I was 10 but that photo made me really sad, fucking paypal dickwads. I cannot begin to comprehend how this makes any sense whatsoever.
January 3, 2012 at 2:10 pm
Super fran- on a happier note, your piggies are adorable! I have four of my own (yes, yes I’m crazy)
January 3, 2012 at 2:22 pm
They are pretty adorable. And very clever. And they couldn’t believe this either.
January 3, 2012 at 3:36 pm
They eat their own babies, but you bet they wouldn’t stoop to this vandalism!
January 3, 2012 at 2:05 pm
…this photo makes my heart ache.
January 3, 2012 at 9:13 pm
Me too. Excuse me while I drip sad salty tears into my Ovaltine.
January 3, 2012 at 2:05 pm
How the fuck does this make any fucking sense ON ANY PLANET ANYWHERE IN THE UNIVERSE??? Who… how… what… I NEED A FUCKING DRINK.
January 3, 2012 at 2:10 pm
I also need to fucking rant! Since when the flying fuck does PayPal have the authority to demand the destruction of someone’s merchandise?! I can’t even begin to comprehend such utter fucking asshattery! And using “counterfeit” as an excuse? Do we also identify counterfeit currency, take a lighter, and burn it to shit in front of the customer? I’ve never encountered such a backwards piece of shite company as PayPal and its pea-brained peons. /rant
January 3, 2012 at 2:45 pm
Seems to me that (if it were counterfeit, which it wasn’t) this means that Paypal is complicit in destroying evidence of forgery.
January 3, 2012 at 7:30 pm
This is an excellent, excellent observation… that can’t be legal!
January 3, 2012 at 8:49 pm
When I worked at a bank, we were given counterfeit currency by merchants from time to time. A cashier had been fooled by it, and, not knowing what to do with it, they brought it to us. WE DID NOT DESTROY IT. We turned that shit over to the Secret Service, along with whatever info the merchant could give us (usually not much).
January 3, 2012 at 2:05 pm
Absolutely sickening. I hope she gets to destroy a Paypal executive as compensation; they’re a lot less useful than that lovely violin had been. And fuck that buyer, too — may he get a leg caught under a moving vehicle sometime in the near future.
January 3, 2012 at 2:05 pm
Wow, just Wow! How can they instruct someone to destroy something that doesn’t belong to them? I too cancelled my paypal account over the Christmas gift debacle. Now I’m thinking of signing up just to cancel again.
January 3, 2012 at 2:10 pm
I don’t understand it either, return it for refund, tho a hassle for a seller, but to order destruction of my property? with out a trial? are they( pay pal) above the law?
January 3, 2012 at 4:42 pm
Agreed, I don’t understand how this can be legal. I’m no lawyer but I’ve seen enough Judge Judy to know that if you buy something and think you got ripped off you return the item and the seller returns the money. If the item happens to be STOLEN or if the seller was intentionally trying to defraud the buyer it then becomes a criminal and not a civil matter. The shit stains at paypal basically played judge jury and executioner in this case.
January 3, 2012 at 8:11 pm
“I’m no lawyer, but I’ve seen enough Judge Judy” was a bright light in a very dark moment.
January 3, 2012 at 11:10 pm
PUT IT ON A SAMPLER.
January 4, 2012 at 7:26 pm
On a side note, I stole it and put it on facebook. New favourite phrase.
January 3, 2012 at 2:07 pm
What the hell?! How is destroying something an appropriate response? I am livid that someone would destroy an instrument, even if it is “counterfeit”. Well… At least I have something to talk about in therapy today. Screw Paypal.
On a side note, the ad on the mobile site is a PayPal ad.
January 3, 2012 at 2:07 pm
Oh that is heart breaking!!!!
January 3, 2012 at 8:51 pm
Mine is too. I can hardly credit it.
January 3, 2012 at 2:08 pm
I think she needs to file a lawsuit. I imagine given the recent negative press PayPal has had, and the ill-will it has engendered worldwide, she should have no trouble finding a willing legal beagle to assist her. Perhaps they can even make it a class action suit.
January 3, 2012 at 2:10 pm
Also, I’d be willing to donate to a charity sale on her behalf, so at least she’d recoup some of the money she’s been fucked out of. Just tell me where to post the items.
January 3, 2012 at 2:11 pm
I’m in with PaganChick. Where do we sign up?
January 3, 2012 at 2:48 pm
I don’t have two cents to rub together, but am willing to donate crafty/vintage stuff to sell to raise funds. Seriously, it’s time to take these asshats down.
January 4, 2012 at 7:30 am
I too would donate what I could to fund a laywer for this. Except I’d have to send cash – I’m sure as hell not sending it through PayPal!
January 3, 2012 at 3:08 pm
YES! Charity sale and someone find a lawyer. This is just wrong.
January 3, 2012 at 8:51 pm
Petition.org?
January 3, 2012 at 3:41 pm
Yes Erica (seller of violin), please pursue this further, for everybody’s sake!
It wasn’t just your violin but belonged to future generations too. A little piece of history has been stolen away completely unnecessarily. These douches need to learn!
January 3, 2012 at 3:30 pm
I’d donate crafty items for sale too.
January 3, 2012 at 8:51 pm
I don’t have a shop, but I can make pretty little 50s-style hats. I’d donate one.
January 4, 2012 at 5:33 pm
I’d donate items to sell for her to file a lawsuit!!!!
January 3, 2012 at 2:08 pm
I… What… This makes my soul hurt.
January 4, 2012 at 12:41 am
Me too…me too…
January 3, 2012 at 2:09 pm
The destruction of musical instruments almost feels blasphemous to me, slightly less so than the destruction of books.
The deliberate ruin of something that exists purely to create pleasing sounds, something that is beautiful and historical in and of itself is just… urgggh.
January 3, 2012 at 6:35 pm
the destruction of fine musical instruments that have to be made completely by hand (have you seen how violins were made in that time period?) is much more blasphemous than the destruction of printed matter that was produced on a commercial press… This is akin to someone destroying a hand-bound book that someone made from hand-made paper and lettered completely by hand.
January 3, 2012 at 2:09 pm
This made me die a little inside.
January 3, 2012 at 2:10 pm
Or submit the story to Consumerist.
January 4, 2012 at 2:04 am
Here it is:
http://consumerist.com/2012/01/paypal-tells-buyer-to-destroy-purchased-violin-instead-of-return-for-refund.html
January 4, 2012 at 11:13 am
It’s also on a top German News website already. And causing quite a lot of activity too I’m pleased to say.
http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/netzpolitik/0,1518,807129,00.html
January 3, 2012 at 2:10 pm
This made me sad
I don’t know much about the violin market, but I do know craftmanship and origin are very important so I can understand wanting to determine the true source of a violin. But does ANYONE ever really support the destruction of a violin? I mean what if it turns out it is a rare/expensive/etc one?
January 3, 2012 at 2:10 pm
How is destroying the Violin in any way a logical solution to the issue?
January 3, 2012 at 2:22 pm
That’s what I don’t understand. Submit it to examination by an expert sure, but destroy it? How the hell does that help anyone?
January 3, 2012 at 2:10 pm
What is WRONG with somebody who buys a violin for 2500 bucks and supposedly cares about antique instruments, yet is enough of a disgusting, vile asshat to DESTROY the instrument?? What the hell, what the hell???
Seriously.
See, I just watched “Terror Island”, am shaken and hoped to get some relief at regretsy. Now I’m just sad. Sad for everything and the world. I’m gonna go and treat me some lolcats.
January 3, 2012 at 2:12 pm
Thumbs up for the rant, thumbs down for Terror Island reference.
January 3, 2012 at 2:14 pm
I just found out there is another “Terror Island” film out there…
I feel the need to point out I watched the norwegian documentary on Utoya.
January 3, 2012 at 2:10 pm
This photo makes me more nauseous than any gross meme stuff on the net. I am SO GLAD I found WePay. I have a feeling they wouldn’t pull this bullshit.
January 3, 2012 at 2:17 pm
Can you use WePay on eBay?? I’ve only just returned to selling on eBay….after almost 2 years not selling anything more than books and games on half….so I’m out of the loop, it used to be required to use PP….
January 3, 2012 at 3:23 pm
Be careful on eBay. I sold there for over ten years when they first started. It’s changed so much – and none for the better – in recent years! I only list there if I have a super-niche item and even then it makes me sick to do it. The place is rampant with scam artists and eBay’s own policies favor the creeps more than the honest sellers anymore. Oh, and whatever they give you in “free” listings is sucked away on the other end by high final value fees. I think they also take a cut on your shipping and tax now, too!
January 3, 2012 at 4:05 pm
It really depends on the category you’re selling in. I sell in vintage and new jewelry, and I’ve never had any problems to speak of in the 5 or so years I’ve been doing it. Yeah, the fees can sometimes be high, but they do bring an awful lot of traffic to the site.
As for policies, it’s primarily PayPal’s that are the problem, and unfortunately that’s true no matter where you sell.
January 3, 2012 at 10:12 pm
Does Ebay no longer own PP? I was among those who used Ebay “back in the day”, but sadly watched it become just another online crapfest of Chinese knockoffs and scam artists.
I do my online antiques shopping on Ruby Lane now.
January 4, 2012 at 7:13 am
I sold collectibles (Marvel Super Hero Squad) right before Christmas….there REALLY isn’t anywhere else I can get as much $$ as I did other than ComiCon….and sorry, but that’s too much work, ya know? This was fairly easy, and I don’t have to pay for a booth, sit at a booth, and pack/unpack/repack/unpack my crap….
And yeah, I know, I’ve been a seller for over 7 years. It SUCKS how many people are out there selling shit from China, etc…..and how cheap a LOT of people have made it…..but for certain collectibles, it’s still worth it, because the traffic is still better.
January 4, 2012 at 4:04 pm
I agree with you, but it freaking sucks that it’s such a “Seller beware” market out there.
Is there a list anywhere of steps sellers can take to cover their asses if buyers/paypal try to screw them?
January 3, 2012 at 2:11 pm
I think PayPal needs to change the hamster in their braintrust. Seriously, this one is defective.
January 3, 2012 at 2:11 pm
Crazy! It really is a “whoever you talk to makes policy that day” kind of company. Worse than Peggy! Was the employee watching a Who video just before this?
Does this destroy to get money refunded policy also apply to statues made out of metal? Coins?
January 3, 2012 at 2:51 pm
On the upside, at least they didn’t buy a puppy.
January 4, 2012 at 5:01 pm
Will I be stoned if I say puppies come and go, but antique violins are irreplaceable? Okay, won’t say anything of the sort then.
January 3, 2012 at 2:12 pm
To see something so valuable, both monetarily and historically, reduced to rubble due to pure ignorance is sickening. That violin was a treasured piece of history. I can’t believe someone would ENCOURAGE the destruction of something so delicate, irreplaceable, and beautiful.
May the buyer’s asshole burn with the fires of a thousand suns.
January 3, 2012 at 3:45 pm
Agreed. I wish severe, uncontrollable anal leakage upon both PayPal and the buyer.
January 3, 2012 at 2:12 pm
Holy fucking shit. That might be the most disgusting thing I have ever seen on the internet, and just this morning I had to look up bowel disorders for someone.
Why would you do this to an instrument? Fake or not, it’s usable and beautiful and art! why?! WHY?!? Paypal, we’re done.
January 3, 2012 at 6:42 pm
Even if it’s fake, a GOOD student-class violin (like for serious college students), NEW is worth 2500 dollars from a reputable luthier.
January 3, 2012 at 2:12 pm
Disgusting. Paypal is slimier than two snails getting it on. The buyer should be ashamed of himself as well. So let me get this straight, buyer wasn’t happy, paypal told the buyer to destroy it, and the seller gets screwed? I’m sure the seller insured it before shipping, so it wouldn’t arrive broken like that. I would take this to court.
January 3, 2012 at 2:13 pm
God, to imagine that this is a viable solution to a dispute now. What if someone finds fault with an item I made, claiming that it wasnt hand made or made from what i said it was, and pay pal orders it destroyed?
January 3, 2012 at 2:20 pm
I’m imagining all the jewellery, clothing, accessories, quilts, furniture, home fixings, etc. that could end up in the hands of someone like this foul fucking piece of excrement, and I swear I’m almost in tears at the notion that PayPal could deem them worthy destruction. Many of the people in my First Nations community make hand beaded fixings, ceremonial costumes, sacred items such as dream catchers and rattles, some of which are very large pieces and take hours upon hours of work. Thinking about something so valuable and cultural wind up in a fucking fire is just… I think I may have a heart attack if I continue. Is this seriously what it means to do business over the web?
January 3, 2012 at 2:24 pm
Oh god I hadn’t even thought about that.
To destroy something with so much history or heritage…
Excuse me while I go vomit
January 3, 2012 at 6:47 pm
Hey, that’s how you get a cheap hobo wedding, right?
January 3, 2012 at 2:14 pm
Can’t you sue someone for this? I know, call Judge Judy!!!
January 3, 2012 at 3:19 pm
Judge Judy would hand them their asses.
January 3, 2012 at 6:43 pm
I would pay good money to see that.
January 3, 2012 at 3:23 pm
In the U.S., you can file a lawsuit for just about anything that involves money or damages that you can assign a monetary value to. This seller most definitely has a small claims suit, which is cheap to file and needs no attorney for any part of the process. However, due to the cultural significance of this item, I would seriously consider consulting an attorney before deciding on where to file. The limit for small claims actions in California is 10,000. If this were me, I’d go for the full 10,000 i9n small claims on this case because you can ask for pain and suffering, etc. and it’s way faster than filing a law suit in state court.
January 3, 2012 at 3:24 pm
derp. *in*
January 3, 2012 at 3:51 pm
Oh, and April, if Erika needs help, just send her my way.
January 3, 2012 at 2:14 pm
thatis insane! Who on earth would have instructed him to do such a evil thing??
I am no antiques expert, but i can tell from what i do know about “old things” that that violin *was* as old as claimed, you can tell by the inside of it, and ironically the label
PLEASE i hope this case goes viral and the person gets their money back, and Paypal is once again shamed. This is so crazy!
January 3, 2012 at 2:14 pm
How is that an appropriate action by PayPal in the least bit? If a buyer disputes something, they ship it back to the seller, and work out some sort of refund as appropriate.
I swear, all of their CSRs must be on gigantic power trips, with very little oversight.
Erica, if you are reading, you should go instantly to small claims court. Stop dealing with PayPal’s ridiculous bureaucracy.
January 3, 2012 at 2:15 pm
That is some fucked up bullshit. Sorry I have nothing constructive to add… I’m too busy getting my jaw back up off the floor. MY GOD.
January 3, 2012 at 2:15 pm
I don’t understand. I thought I was more smarterer than this. Why would Paypal require that an item be destroyed? How does that change anything? If the buyer was defrauded (which it appears in this case they weren’t) why wouldn’t Paypal’s ONLY required course of action be that the money and item are returned to the original parties? What does destruction accomplish? Really. What am I missing?
January 3, 2012 at 2:18 pm
I feel like I’m taking crazy pills!
January 3, 2012 at 2:44 pm
I can’t figure it out, either!
January 3, 2012 at 5:27 pm
I’m guessing it’s probably along the vein that if it is pronounced a “counterfeit” then it should be destroyed to prevent the seller from turning around and selling the counterfeit merchandise to someone else. This is, of course, meant to keep people from selling $15 “Rollox” watches as a legitimate Rolex. I don’t think this was the contingency that policy was originally intended for, and it looks like it’s been badly misused and misconstrued.
Again, the buyer should have had more sense, and again, did not deserve to own such a fine thing – the tragedy being that it is now destroyed.
January 3, 2012 at 10:22 pm
But even if I sold you a Rollox, why should you be allowed to destroy it? Shouldn’t a refund be enough? Is there a concern as to whether the buyer might “pay it forward” and try to resell my Rollox to some other schmuck?
These questions and many more will be answered on the next episode of
SOAP.
January 4, 2012 at 6:07 am
I agree – Paypal shouldn’t concern itself with law enforcement.
January 4, 2012 at 6:14 pm
It’s not like PayPal concerns itself with ANY laws in the first place. :\
January 3, 2012 at 4:42 pm
The reason makes sense for many items that are NOT ANTIQUES. The reason they want a counterfeit item destroyed rather than returned to the seller is because they don’t want to participate in the sale of counterfeit item and do not want the seller to continue profiting off of the sale of an item known to be counterfeit. This would make sense if the item were say a knock off Rolex watch or LV Bag. In that case it the item was made specifically to trick a consumer into buying a label. The label is the only value. It can be determined fairly easily and beyond reasonable doubt that the item is fake. The item has no value without the label. In the case of antiques such as this the reasoning used by paypal is absurd and not applicable because the item has value EVEN IF it were labeled wrong. The buyer may have had issue with the item but the sole value of the item is not the label and the item was not made for the express purpose of tricking a consumer. It is not worthless w/o the label
January 3, 2012 at 8:33 pm
I’m missing where the buyer actually paid an expert to determine the violin was a fraud, entitling him to his money back. Without that evidence it was nothing more than a “he said/she said” tantrum. I’m also missing the part where PayPal is qualified to make that assessment on the buyer’s behalf.
January 3, 2012 at 2:17 pm
FUCK!
That’s the only word that comes to mind after reading that. THAT’S A PRICELESS ARTIFACT. How the fuck do you tell someone to DESTROY it?
PayPal, DIE. NOW.
January 3, 2012 at 2:17 pm
It makes me so angry to see this. All the money that paypal has taken from me over the years makes me mad. They’re supposed to protect buyers AND sellers. Fucking destroy a musical instrument? WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH THE PEOPLE AT PAYPAL?
I had one dispute where they immediately found for the buyer, who was trying to do something majorly dishonest. I was flagged and had an open dispute for quite awhile. That’s beyond stressful! I’m the one giving them money, just like this poor person with the violin.
I feel so horrible for this person. I’ve always hated Paypal because of the way that they handle things. I’ve heard lots of stories, but this takes the cake.
So…is there anything we can do?
January 3, 2012 at 2:18 pm
I didn’t cancel my account after the Christmas drama because I was happy with their apology. But now… fuck them. Fuck them in their miserable, soulless asses.
January 3, 2012 at 2:55 pm
Fuck them and use Vaseline mixed with lots of sand. No, on second thought they might get a kick out that.
January 3, 2012 at 5:28 pm
Pumice, toothpaste, and capsicum.
January 3, 2012 at 5:52 pm
And a sandpaper condom. Nobody can like that much sand!
*rubs hands in gleeful anticipation*
January 3, 2012 at 5:59 pm
I like the cut of your jib.
January 3, 2012 at 8:07 pm
Diatomaceous earth!
January 3, 2012 at 8:55 pm
Add a little salt.
January 3, 2012 at 7:09 pm
Fuck them in their prolapsed fuckholes!
Too soon?
January 3, 2012 at 2:19 pm
Okay, as a violinist NO. WHAT THE FUCKING NO. THERE IS NOT ENOUGH CAPSLOCK TO CONVEY MY RAGE ASDFGHJKL A PERFECTLY USEFUL VIOLIN THAT CAN NEVER BE REPLACED ALL VIOLINS GET BETTER WITH AGE THIS COULD HAVE BEEN THE ONLY GOOD VIOLIN A STUDENT COULD HAVE AFFORDED AAAAAAAAARGH
January 3, 2012 at 2:26 pm
Even if it was a brand new, made in china piece of crap violin, WHY would you ruin a perfectly good instrument?
And the fact that it is so old- that’s like going into an antique museum and smashing pottery….
January 3, 2012 at 2:54 pm
That’s exactly it! Even fake violins have value…
Where is the Paypal headquarters located?
January 3, 2012 at 8:40 pm
January 3, 2012 at 4:39 pm
“Excuse me, Paypal, our museum just bought this rare dinosaur fossil that was marketed as being from the Jurassic, but I think it is actually from the Triassic. What should I do?”
“Just smash the fossil with a sledgehammer and you can have your money back.”
“Ok!”
January 3, 2012 at 5:29 pm
I have an $80 factory made cheapie violin I wouldn’t treat like this.
January 3, 2012 at 2:33 pm
Yes! This honestly makes me weep for the children. How soulless and inhuman does someone have to be to DESTROY MUSIC?!?!
January 3, 2012 at 4:12 pm
I don’t play much now, but when I studied violin as a kid, my parents saved up an bought me one. It wasn’t great – it was decent quality for what they paid, but the tone is harsh.
I still have it to this day, in case I want to relearn to play.
It’s not a good violin, but the idea of SMASHING IT is still anathema to me. I would have thought the idea of smashing one would be unthinkable to anyone who loved them.
January 3, 2012 at 6:49 pm
My daughter won’t even let me sell her old violin or donate it to the school music program. Too much sentimental value, even though she has a much nicer one now.
January 3, 2012 at 8:57 pm
I’ve still got my old nickel-plated student flute, even though I haven’t played it in so many years I get light-headed trying to now.
January 3, 2012 at 2:21 pm
WHY ? I forgot I used paypal to pay for my world of warcraft account so I can’t cancel yet but next month I swear to god I am going to tell them to go to hell.
How is this not a crime?? Somewhere Tchaikovsky is rolling over in his grave
January 4, 2012 at 7:51 am
Roll over Tchaikovsky, and tell Judge Judy the news.
January 3, 2012 at 2:21 pm
Now I know how I can satisfy my fetish for breaking antiques – for free!!
January 3, 2012 at 2:21 pm
This is just absolutely insane, how is destroying something a surefire way to get the money back? I mean…honestly!
The buyer destroyed it! I’m a firm believer of you break it, you bought it. Fucking PayPal. I am so sick.
January 3, 2012 at 2:22 pm
I would ask for the pieces of the violin and go stab Paypal in the throat. I would then use the strings to strangle the idiot buyer who obeyed Paypal/Hitler.
January 3, 2012 at 3:17 pm
And that is what the Etsy experience is all about, RogueAngel!
January 4, 2012 at 7:57 am
And I will punch them in their stewpid faces. Durn Nazis.
January 3, 2012 at 2:23 pm
The buyer and the useful piece of smegma who told him to destroy it should be staked out in just their undies while the seller gets to use a teaspoon and slowly pile pure lye on their stomachs till it eats all the way through.
As an avid music lover and someone who would kill to be able to be talented enough to play such a beautiful instrument, my heart hurts looking at that and fills my brain with rage. I hope she sues the ever loving shit out of those scumbags.
January 3, 2012 at 6:23 pm
I’ve taken to fantasizing about this lady leading a violent assault on PayPal headquarters.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g65oWFMSoK0&list=FLre4OA2sFiFTIhxIsLdUBQQ&index=5&feature=plpp_video
And then I fantasize about living with her in a fancy chateau in the French countryside, where she’ll play for me every day. But that’s a whole other, orientation-confusing issue.
January 3, 2012 at 8:56 pm
LOL thats a fantasy I could get on board with. And I am sure my husband would agree
January 4, 2012 at 3:33 pm
I approve of your use of the word “smegma”.
January 3, 2012 at 2:24 pm
I do not regret closing my Paypal account. I don’t know who’s dumber, Paypal or the idiot buyer.
January 3, 2012 at 2:24 pm
Yup, that was the straw. My account is closed and any “needs” I have for PayPal will be reconsidered before I purchase.
January 3, 2012 at 2:24 pm
sad. so sad.
January 3, 2012 at 2:24 pm
I, for one, am thrilled to know that the heroes of Paypal are keeping our nation (and Canada, I guess) safe from the horrors of COUNTERFEIT VIOLIN SALES.
Without companies like Paypal, these atrocities will never end, and the world will be overrun with beautiful old antique violins.
The children, etc.
January 3, 2012 at 2:35 pm
And don’t forget saving us from the atrocities of helping families in need around Christmastime.
They’re like Superman, Jesus, and Justin Bieber all rolled into one!
January 3, 2012 at 2:37 pm
“Paypal – Proudly Keeping Your Altruism Gland in Check.”
January 3, 2012 at 3:22 pm
We can’t have counterfeit violins on the market! It’s a gateway drug to MUSIC and then CREATIVITY!
WON’T SOMEONE THINK OF THE KITTENS??
January 3, 2012 at 2:27 pm
What the fucking fuck?! SUE THEM!! How dare Paypal say something is “counterfeit” without even examining it in person. And send the buyer an angry jar of bees. Unfuckingbelivable.
I guess from now on if you don’t want to pay for something that you purchased through paypal, just call up and say it’s “counterfeit”.
“Hello paypal, these underpants I purchased appear to be counterfeit.”
“Destroy them, we’ll get your money back. But those kids at Christmas? Fuck them.”
January 3, 2012 at 6:50 pm
This makes me really wish the seller sent that buyer a bobcat instead.
http://xkcd.com/325/
January 3, 2012 at 8:23 pm
Or a hissing, snarling wolverine
January 4, 2012 at 8:02 am
Or a honey badger. Honey badger don’t give a shit, he’ll take on any deal.
January 3, 2012 at 2:28 pm
Is it weird that this makes me sicker/ sadder than the whole internet worth of tub girl and goatse? I have to cancel my PayPal account over this. I also wish I could punch the buyer in the face.
January 3, 2012 at 2:29 pm
I’ve played the cello for twenty years and this is just heart breaking. God, if Paypal had told me to destroy it I would have told them they were out of their minds. So what if it wasn’t what the label said it was still a beautiful violin, capable of making music. The destruction of this one just makes me ill.
January 3, 2012 at 4:45 pm
I showed this to my boyfriend, who also was a cellist (in the past). I think he is about to cry. He keeps moaning “WHHHHYYY” and rubbing his face.
January 3, 2012 at 2:30 pm
I too closed my paypal account in the days after the ‘paypal hates children’ debarcle, not just because of the problems regretsy had but because they also took a sellers word that he had not ‘receiced in a reasonable amount of time’ faulty electronics that I had to return to him to get a refund- he made the cliam he hadnt recieved them on the day I sent them, well inside the time allowed to send them back by paypal- and I had a receipt from the post office stating where I sent them- never mind that the seller contacted me personally and asked me to send them to 3 different addresses, I suspect to actually fulfil customer orders instead of inspect/ repair them which is downright dodgy. So, I was down $180 and had to find new christmas presents for my children on short notice. And they wonder why we hate them.
January 3, 2012 at 2:32 pm
There are times when something awful happens, and as much as you want to complain, it still makes an inkling of sense in the back of your mind. This however does not. I don’t even understand how destroying something gets you your money back. If you go into a store and start smashing things, they don’t say “oh, it’s okay, just go ahead and take those for free”… Being upset about something that in a completely unfair way makes sense is one thing, but this is just downright confusing!
January 3, 2012 at 2:32 pm
Whenever I see something that angers and stupefies me, I try to tell myself that someone somewhere must have made a choice that, while it may seem frustrating and illogical to me now, seemed to them like the best course of action given what they knew and what circumstances they were under.
Congratulations, PayPal. You have destroyed one of my coping mechanisms for dealing with this world.
January 3, 2012 at 8:17 pm
It’s people like the fucktards at PayPal who made this decision (i.e. punched in the keyword “counterfeit” and went with the first fucking suggestion on the list of how to handle it) that make me weep for the future of Mankind, and that make the movie “Idiocracy” seem far too much like a documentary.
Please, April, tell me what I can do to help this seller.
January 4, 2012 at 11:31 am
Yes…I agree. We need to help her out…that’s a ton of money/product to be out of
January 4, 2012 at 2:16 pm
Is someone setting up legal fee donations for Erica? This is insane. The whole logic behind this arbitrary black and white morality that PayPal plays by is above and beyond what is legal. I know that one little seller and a lawyer funded by crafts going up against this fucking PayKraken is doomed but… I don’t know what else to say. This makes me so sad.
January 3, 2012 at 2:33 pm
Was this through eBay? Or Etsy? I don’t know if it makes a difference because eBay owns Paypal, but this is eBays/paypal “buyer protection policy”
http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/policies/buyer-protection.html#paypal
Look under ‘What happens if a buyer believes and item to be counterfeit?’
Basically with this wishy washy and vague policy they are absolving themselves of all blame – Totally ridiculous.
January 3, 2012 at 2:40 pm
“Eligible cases that meet the conditions and are not excluded under this Policy may count as criteria, infringement or a violation by the seller of our prohibited and infringing items policy. As a result, we may impose sanctions on the seller, up to and including suspension of the seller’s account”
I’m sorry, but suspending the seller’s account comes AFTER asking the buyer to DESTROY THE MERCHANDISE on their list of “sanctions”???
January 3, 2012 at 2:43 pm
I don’t know how paypal can say for sure if something is counterfeit or not, so how can they order destruction so easily? I would think that a third party expert should be involved at the least. :/
January 3, 2012 at 3:00 pm
According to this article, PayPal does require third-party review, although who certifies the third party and whether their judgment can be appealed seems to be up in the air. I would think that even “experts” can disagree on some items are genuine or not.
January 3, 2012 at 6:54 pm
It’s not wishy-washy… they mention something in the same paragraph about WRITTEN CONFIRMATION BY A THIRD PARTY
“We reserve the right to accept this written confirmation directly from other reliable third parties.Buyers agree to cooperate with us to ensure the proper disposal of the counterfeit items. For example, buyers may be asked to destroy (and certify that the item has been destroyed) or send the item to the manufacturer or other appropriate third party for disposal. Any costs associated with this destruction or disposal may be paid by eBay, in our sole discretion.”
January 4, 2012 at 4:57 am
But they don’t even say what their definition of a reliable third party is, or whose responsibility it is to find a third party, or how any of that shit gets verified.
The original seller in this case had the violin appraised prior to sale, now either there was a failure to obtain documentation of that, or paypal don’t give a shit about expert third parties opinions. :/
January 3, 2012 at 2:35 pm
There are tears of anger. And annoyance. I don’t care if the buyer didn’t like it – or whatever – you don’t destroy a work of art. Violins are utter works of art. As a company who just handles the monetary transactions what right do they have to tell someone to DESTROY a piece of ANYTHING?
If you didn’t like it. Send it back. Before anything is deemed counterfeit, aren’t you supposed to you know have PROOF to back it up? among other legal proceedings – NOT destruction of property?
This makes me so very very sad and sick and distraught. If I could afford a card processing thing for my online store instead of having to use pay(with your SOUL)pal, I would. I’m GAH! What the bloody butt fuck is wrong with people?!
January 3, 2012 at 8:23 pm
If you have a smartphone (iPhone, Blackberry or Droid), convo me and I’ll gladly send you a free credit card reader for it, and there’s a free app to process them. No monthly carrying charge, and they only charge you a percentage of the sale. No per transaction fees.
January 4, 2012 at 2:40 pm
Oh that would be amazing!! I’ll drop you a convo! That’s what we’ve been looking for for all of our shows!
January 3, 2012 at 2:35 pm
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
January 3, 2012 at 2:35 pm
I’m willing to believe that PayPal is evil. That’s pretty well established.
I’m having a very difficult time believing that the buyer was willing to destroy an antique violin just because someone on the phone told them to. I’m also wondering about the intelligence of the seller. Why not go through a good auction house or antique dealer?
And do the pieces of that violin in the picture look rather big to be a violin?
What I’m saying is that I’m not believing the story, although I’m totally on board with the moral.
January 3, 2012 at 2:38 pm
I’ve been kind of thinking the same thing. Mostly just hoping that the world isn’t this insane. Do they have in writing that paypal told them to destroy it? Seems like that’s enough to go to court or something.
January 3, 2012 at 2:42 pm
We only have half the story here to be fair. I think that Paypals policy is absurd and vague because as far as I can tell they are in no position to verify the authenticity of specialist items such as violins. It is in their policy though, so if anything this case has highlighted that there is a massive risk for people selling stuff like this using paypal.
January 3, 2012 at 3:24 pm
I may, perhaps, be old and distrustful. But I would never think to sell a valuable item to a complete stranger over the internet. Because at some point I would have to let go of that item and trust that their payment is real. On the flip side, I couldn’t purchase something like this over the internet because I couldn’t believe that the seller was being truly honest. I would want to see the violin in person at the very least.
If there were a dispute over the label, the the seller would have known about that, and should have informed the buyer, to begin with. The dispute isn’t between the buyer and seller. The label itself is disputed by some portion of experts in the field. Among antique violins, a disputed label is part of the provenance of the piece.
This whole story just isn’t ringing true to me.
January 3, 2012 at 4:20 pm
The more I think about it, the more I lean towards doubt as well.
I hope this isn’t some scam to get April to rally us together to give the seller the money. Someone suggested donating the money to a charity site of the seller’s choice. THAT I could go with.
Damn it. FJLs are SO soft-hearted. (Not soft-arteried, however, once let loose at a deep-fryer. Sorry. Needed a little humor here.)
January 3, 2012 at 7:02 pm
I had trouble selling a trailer via ebay, when the buyer had to come to the house to pick it up. He managed to talk me into leaving the license plate on it so he could drive it to the M-state where he lived, on the promise that he’d send it back to me on arrival. It’s been 7 years… I still haven’t got the thing back.
January 3, 2012 at 7:12 pm
Princess: Have you ever gotten a letter about an overdue parking (or moving) violation for that plate? I’d hate to think the swine used it for nefarious purposes (other than just being a swine for not returning it).
January 4, 2012 at 7:10 pm
You must be fortunate enough to have never been faced with a gigantic overdue bill, medical expense or sudden unemployment. I had a box full of very valuable (not as much as this violin, but well over a thousand dollars) collectibles that, because my unemployment ran out and I needed to pay bills went up on etsy at a relatively low price so I could get the money fast and via paypal. I’m going to reserve judgement on Erica, since I don’t know why she was selling the violin or what her discussions with the seller were. But if I were to cast lots on who is more upstanding in this story, it’s never going to be PayPal, simply going on their past history. And I very highly doubt that we’ll hear a truthful side of the story from them any time soon.
January 3, 2012 at 3:15 pm
I’m having a very difficult time believing that the buyer was willing to destroy an antique violin just because someone on the phone told them to.
I don’t.
January 3, 2012 at 3:45 pm
Sadly, I have been selling online for long enough (over 6 years) to believe that there are buyers out there that would do this and not think twice about it. You have no concept of how mean and disgusting some people can be when they believe that they have been “wronged” in some way, be it real or not. They are perfectly fine to do things and SAY things that you would never do in normal society.
January 3, 2012 at 4:48 pm
I said it when this happened and I’ll say it again now: There is such a thing as personal responsibility. The whole “buy they told me to…” holds very little weight once you pass the fifth grade. At some point you have to apply your own moral code and common sense to each situation.
January 3, 2012 at 9:02 pm
“I was only following orders” isn’t an answer.
January 3, 2012 at 3:20 pm
Relative to the fingerboard, the pieces look about the right size. And to get those piece he would have to have destroyed somebody’s violin. I see the sound peg back there, even. Ugh.
January 3, 2012 at 3:25 pm
To be fair, most general antique dealers don’t know shit about violins, and as far as violins go, under $5000 is unremarkable to auction houses as this is the common high end student/low end pro price range. If the seller had no local stringed instrument shops to go through, this may have seemed like a good or at least convenient idea.
January 3, 2012 at 3:44 pm
Or I should say, $2000-$5000 is that price range. I… you know I need a fucking drink. I can’t even look at that picture for more than a second at a time. I’m too horrified by this all.
January 3, 2012 at 7:39 pm
Oh, I tweeted it knowing it could be fake. (or at least parts of it could be) But I worded the tweet to paypal as a question, asking them to comment. Did this happen? Is this their policy? It bothers me that they have nothing to say, and that at least I’ve heard other tales that are similar.
January 3, 2012 at 2:36 pm
That is disgusting. As a musician this breaks my heart.
What sort of power trip are they on that they believe this is acceptable?
January 3, 2012 at 2:36 pm
Wow. I used to play the viola. I can’t imagine anyone with knowledge of string instruments doing that! Really, doesn’t it come down to how the instrument sounds?
January 3, 2012 at 2:53 pm
Yay for fellow Violists!
January 3, 2012 at 2:41 pm
Why was contacting the seller not a viable option for a return and refund? As a lover of music and history this just absolutely breaks my heart.
January 3, 2012 at 2:41 pm
Isn’t there some legal recourse that the seller can take here? Maybe in small claims court? I don’t understand how you can destroy the item you were sent AND get your money back — I know paypal ordered it BUT I CAN NOT see how this action was legal.
January 3, 2012 at 2:47 pm
I agree. I understand that if it was damaged in shipping a refund should be issued, but destroyed by the seller is completely different. And how the f*** can PayPal deem it counterfit without proof?
January 3, 2012 at 2:51 pm
This one is seriously boggling my mind actually.
Could you just imagine walking into a store with a DESTROYED item and telling them that you were told to do so by your credit card company because they said it was counterfeit and then the credit card company then gave you a refund for the goods.
HOW DID THIS SOLUTION MAKE SENSE TO ANYONE AT ANY TIME.
This is one of those “…if it weren’t for my horse, I never would have made it though college..” scenarios that just DRIVES YOU FUCKING CRAZY.
January 3, 2012 at 2:44 pm
The only time I have ever seen where you destroy something is in the art/poster world. I have seen a screen printer send a print to someone, and then for whatever reason, the print was damaged on the way to the buyer. When the buyer wants the print replaced, the artists typically asks that the buyer destroys the damaged print and send photo evidence of it. But this is so the person does not end up with two of the item, trying to scam the artist.
January 3, 2012 at 3:06 pm
But the same wouldn’t work for an antique oil painting which is closer to what this is. You can’t just print off or make another – you’d have to go back in time! Just… Can’t… Comprehend…
January 3, 2012 at 5:12 pm
Oh I know. This case doesn’t work because the seller can’t just give the buyer a new one.
I guess the thought was that they were destroying a counterfeit so that it can’t be resold to someone else. But they had no basis to do that…
January 3, 2012 at 2:47 pm
What the ever-loving fuck is wrong with people!? This just reinforces the fact that I made the right decision in cancelling my PayPal account.
Buyer protection is a great thing, but what about protecting the seller from asswads like this buyer? The sellers are the ones who pay the fucking fees that keeps PayPal in business, for crap’s sake! Then to side with the buyer without any proof, AND tell the buyer to destroy merchandise? That just takes the cake. Assholes.
January 3, 2012 at 10:38 pm
And you just KNOW that PayPal kept their fees for the transaction, adding insult to injury.
January 3, 2012 at 2:50 pm
Oh my fucking dog, I would have Paypal’s ass in a sling over this. What a bunch of fucktards
January 3, 2012 at 2:50 pm
God, that makes me so sick. To destroy something like that–even if the label is in dispute, the history of the object is not. Plus, the identity of the object (it’s still a violin!) is not in dispute either!
I think the only thing that will turn Paypal around is if someone sues them for something big. They need to get hit where it hurts to make them pay attention. Right now, they are acting like children in an adult world, and the adult world needs to enforce some discipline.
January 3, 2012 at 2:52 pm
Emerging from my “rarely comments on posts” cave to say the following:
This is truly gutting. I feel physically sick, both by the actions of PayPal AND the buyer.
Okay.. I need a drink.
January 3, 2012 at 2:53 pm
Let’s buy a bunch of reseller items, claim they are counterfeit (which they definitely are, unlike the violin), and see if PayPal will let us destroy them for refunds…
January 3, 2012 at 2:54 pm
What is wrong with people?!! Why would you destroy an instrument someone could use? I smell lawsuit and it smells heavenly. I hope some smart law professional steps up and pockets a huge commission.
January 3, 2012 at 3:29 pm
I think a big question is; does paypal have any authority to demand someone destroy property?
January 3, 2012 at 4:51 pm
Anyone can demand anything. You have the right to consent or refuse.
January 4, 2012 at 12:37 pm
But just because you demand something doesn’t mean you have any AUTHORITY to do so.
Hell, no! No fucking WAY did PayPal have any authority!
January 3, 2012 at 2:54 pm
Erica should get her money back, the buyer should get those violin shards shoved up their ass and PayPal should suck a dick.
January 3, 2012 at 2:54 pm
So is she going to sue them? Does she have a legal leg to stand on? She has to, right?
January 3, 2012 at 2:56 pm
I would think she does! They smashed her property. If she had to refund money, it should have been sent right back to her.
January 3, 2012 at 2:57 pm
Is PayPal participating in some sort of work/cooperative program for illiterates? Did the customer service rep who ordered the destruction of this instrument not understand exactly what a “violin” is? This is just unfathomable.
January 3, 2012 at 2:58 pm
This is seriously making me angry… You don’t go around smashing stuff without prior knowledge of what the hell you’re doing!
PayPal should just assume everyone they screw over is a Regretsian. I think their PR department would have a much easier time.
RIP Violin
January 3, 2012 at 7:13 pm
A bird cries for the dead violin. How poignant.
January 3, 2012 at 7:37 pm
It’s the Crying Finnish Finch and it weeps for the horribleness!
January 3, 2012 at 9:08 pm
If my eyes don’t mistake me… it’s actually a Warbler. Thumbs up anyways, for speaking the truth!
January 3, 2012 at 9:13 pm
Crap, I meant to put Warbler. I think I need sleep. xD
January 3, 2012 at 2:58 pm
What angers me even more than PayPal’s insanity is the glee that the buyer took in destroying the violin. Sounds like one of those fuckers who enjoys screwing with other people and costing them lots of money, to boost his zero self-esteem from being—and knowing he is—an oozing pimple on the ass of humanity. He got to destroy a beautiful instrument and it cost him nothing.
He’s a prick, probably with a micro prick.
January 3, 2012 at 5:24 pm
I agree Mugsy. But I am most disturbed by the the buyer’s obvious GLEE in smashing this violin and then taking a fucking PICTURE of this sick vandalism and sending it to the poor seller. What the fuck is up with that??
Sick fuck.
January 4, 2012 at 12:42 pm
My guess would be, the buyer was a scammer. He probably had the whole thing planned out before making the original purchase. And he’s gleeful because his scam worked – he got a lovely antique, irreplaceable instrument FOR FREE. (I’m sure the shards in the photo were from a “dummy” violin that he smashed instead of the real one.)
And, because he’s a scammer and scammers are assholes, he gets a sick thrill from rubbing it in the seller’s face.
Just my guess. Cynical? Yes. Likely? Also yes.
January 3, 2012 at 3:07 pm
OMG this makes me ill!!
January 3, 2012 at 3:14 pm
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January 3, 2012 at 3:18 pm
Erm… there are a few million of us you know. Don’t assume we’re all douche bags just because one hockey head over here is.
January 3, 2012 at 4:22 pm
How about “Fuck the scummy Canadians who scam honest sellers online”? That should whittle down the “few million” to a small handful.
January 3, 2012 at 4:51 pm
That’s like using Glenn Beck to represent Statesiders. Not everyone in the U.S. is an unhinged lunatic, nor is everyone in Canada a jersey thief. People are people, wherever you go. For better AND worse.
January 3, 2012 at 4:59 pm
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January 3, 2012 at 5:04 pm
they won’t miss you
January 3, 2012 at 5:24 pm
Wow. Uh, on behalf of this Canadian (and I’m sure several million more), you should probably just stay home with your butt-hurt if we offend you so much.
And speaking as someone who has traveled extensively in the States, I just want to say it’s a lovely country with great people. Except you, possibly.
January 3, 2012 at 5:45 pm
bucky: Don’t worry – this happens regionally in and among the States, too. You’ll get, oh, an occasional Texan who’ll think all or most New Yorkers are fast talking swindlers… a random New Yorker who thinks everyone from Georgia is a rube… some isolated Tennessean who thinks Yankees (northerners) are Satan’s children. Many of us are actually quite sane, though, and realize people are just people.
January 3, 2012 at 7:08 pm
My band toured briefly in Ontario, and we found you guys to be some of the most polite, nicest folks we have ever run across. Plus the venue who hired us treated us like fucking rock stars.
I LOVE CANADA.
(if the crazy conservatives somehow manage to win the election, I will want to move there. Can I stay at your house?)
January 4, 2012 at 7:51 am
Buzzkill: If one of the current crop of candidates wins you might wanna be careful. I can see Bachmann nuking Canada for “religious reasons.”
January 4, 2012 at 8:28 am
Sure, Princess Buzzkill, you’re more than welcome! We’ll try to get the basement finished for you before election day.
HalfNote5, our current right-wing government leader would probably giggle with glee if one of your GOP candidates got voted in, so I’m not anticipating any nukes. lol
January 4, 2012 at 8:51 am
Bucky: you may have a point. M.B. is military-grade crazy though, which is precisely why she wouldn’t ever win.
January 4, 2012 at 8:54 am
(not to imply, of course, that our esteemed veterans are crazy, of course. Rather, I mean it in the sense that the military usually has higher quality/stronger equipment than is available in the general public sector.)
January 4, 2012 at 9:41 am
HalfNote5: Good news for many of us (I won’t presume to speak for everyone; after all, she did get some votes in Iowa) Bachmann’s dropped out of the race. I saw a clip of her on a Sunday news show. Asked how she’d deal with Iran. Her short answer for Iran and pretty much any country: Nuke them. She said it with such a lack of expression or emotion that she truly frightened me.
January 4, 2012 at 10:35 am
HalfNote, are you trying to tell this here Tennesseean that y’all don’t all worship Satan and get your titties pierced and marry foreigners? BECAUSE I KNOW FOR A FACT THAT AIN’T TRUE.
Enjoy hell, devils!
January 4, 2012 at 11:54 am
@EvieStevie:
Hey now, I didn’t say we don’t all pierce our nipples. It’s a right of passage, like First Communion or your first felony charges.
January 3, 2012 at 5:38 pm
Don’t worry, Canadians. I (and most of us statesiders) still love you. And your adorable accents. ; )
And for the record, Toronto is AWESOME.
January 4, 2012 at 8:26 am
Toronto IS awesome, let’s go visit together! I could use some Tim Horton’s right about now (with a big shot of whiskey in it). Then let’s hunt down the buyer and tell him what we think of him.
January 4, 2012 at 8:58 am
@Lola: There’s Tim Horton’s just north of Cinci now. They’re invading! ; )
January 4, 2012 at 10:14 am
@HalfNote5 – How long till they reach San Diego? I ain’t got time to wait around. Haha ^.^
January 3, 2012 at 10:11 pm
Whatever. I sell to Canadian customers all the time, and I’ve never had ONE problem with ANY of them. I love, love, love my international customers. They usually spend more money and almost never ask to return anything.
In any event, I have to love Canada just on principle for producing the best prog rock band ever.
January 4, 2012 at 8:29 am
Please say you mean Rush ^^
January 4, 2012 at 8:57 am
Barenaked Ladies.
January 4, 2012 at 9:58 am
Well, of COURSE I mean Rush . . . hence the screen name.
January 4, 2012 at 10:15 am
Um….derp?
January 4, 2012 at 6:28 am
God, it’s almost as hard being American as it is to be white and pretty. Thanks, Rex.
January 3, 2012 at 4:52 pm
pretty sure it wasn’t a nationwide scam to defraud you
January 3, 2012 at 5:00 pm
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January 3, 2012 at 6:04 pm
I sure as hell would be upset in your situation. And after your experiences I would probably refrain from tangled up in international laws, especially since inter-STATE laws can get confusing at times.
But I sure as hell wouldn’t blame all of Canada, or let it affect my view of a country I’ve never been to. You recognize that Americans get a bad rap due to a select few, yet you don’t want to be ABOVE doing the same damn thing and being a hypocrite? YOU’RE AWESOME.
January 4, 2012 at 12:03 pm
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January 4, 2012 at 12:16 pm
Generally, it’s because the accepted social protocol that one should not be offended by or use as proof of injury an action or behavior that one is guilty of one’s self.
But that’s just a guess, and I don’t presume to speak for i.i.b. ; )
January 4, 2012 at 9:54 pm
You’re getting upset that people are not crying you a river, and I provided my thoughts on it.
HalfNote5 hit the nail on the head. I personally don’t think saying “FUCK CANADIANS” and behaving like a five year old (i.e.: ‘Other people are being mean so I can be mean too!’) will get people to be understanding or sympathetic of you (which IS what you were trying to do with the “if you were in my situation…”).
What makes me laugh is that you’re saying about how nobody gets you, yet when people point out why they took offense or aren’t sympathetic you bite their heads off. It’s a free country and you’re an adult so you can do/think/say what you want, crappy attitude included. But that also means that I can do/think/say what I want, including “moralizing”.
January 4, 2012 at 5:37 am
Oh I wasn’t upset by the last two lines. I was put off by your entire comment.
January 4, 2012 at 7:45 am
yeahhh that was the only ignorant part of the comment… The only thing worse than ignorant assholes are ignorant assholes who attempt to defend their behavior.
January 4, 2012 at 8:31 am
I’m annoyed at everything you said, pretty much. I’m sorry you were defrauded, that shouldn’t happen to anyone, but your attitude is all wrong.
January 4, 2012 at 8:49 am
No, if I were in your shoes, I wouldn’t feel the same way, because I’m not some unhinged moron who would assume that all of Canada is full of terrible individuals who are all out to scam Americans. Considering that this has apparently happened to you numerous times, have you ever thought to consider that the problem might be you? Maybe you should update your policies on returns so that you can protect yourself rather than forbidding all Canadians from buying your items. I’m not saying it’s your fault that your store gets scammed, but at least be proactive about it.
As for your outright hatred of Canada in general, fuck you. Canada is a lovely country with very nice people. I have never traveled there and had a problem with anyone, not even in Quebec.
January 4, 2012 at 10:03 am
Exactly.
My worst customer was in Italy. But that doesn’t mean anything. I’m half Italian myself (all my paternal great-grandparents were born there) and Italy is one of my favorite places in the world. Are there assholes there? Sure, but they’re EVERYWHERE.
January 4, 2012 at 10:22 am
In fact I’m pretty sure there’s one on my butt right now.
But seriously, People are People, everywhere you go. Some are great, some are rotten. Most are in the middle somewhere. Push me hard enough, and my inner asshole will rear it’s ugly rear. I find that if you treat people with respect, you will get mostly respect in return. Mostly. Life isn’t fair though, so don’t be too surprised when some assholes show up. And if they swindle you out of $2500, get someone like Judge Judy to be an asshole on your behalf!
January 4, 2012 at 12:00 pm
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January 4, 2012 at 2:32 pm
No, you said FUCK CANADIANS. Which, you know, generally implies that you think Canadians are horrible and worthless. I can see you being angry about some hockey jersey stealing guy, but for that to make you prejudiced against an entire country is a bit of an over-reaction on your part.
I’m glad you’re proud to admit your prejudices, I guess?
January 4, 2012 at 5:41 pm
You are being just awful about all of this. This post shouldn’t even be about you and yet here you are, being flippant and entirely ignorant. Defending a stereotype doesn’t excuse you.
January 4, 2012 at 12:03 pm
Dude, now is the time when we let it go right after you say “I’m sorry – in retrospect I may have been hasty in my snap decision to lump all Canadians in with my bad experiences involving an unusually large percentage of assholes among my clientelle who happened to be from there, by what may be sheer coincidence. My apologies to the good people of Canada and the good people of the U.S. who have joined hands to point out to me the error of drawing an assumption on an entire people based upon the actions of a select few.” Also, one could postulate the sports fans have a certain sub-segment in their populace that behave less than perfectly at all times, and yet you don’t immediately conclude that the problem is selling to sports fans. This would be EQUALLY wrong, but just as likely an assumption as your “Canadians Suck” conclusion.
January 3, 2012 at 3:16 pm
Oh, that is unbearable. How sad, the situation and the photo evidence. My goodness, you’d think a buyer of beautiful old instruments wouldn’t have been able to so gleefully destroy one and then share it around. How heartbreaking.
January 3, 2012 at 3:17 pm
I wonder if legal action can be taken against the buyer. If you want to get all technical about it, the buyer was refunded so the violin once again became the seller’s property. Instead of sending it back, they destroyed it.
Someone should contact a lawyer.
January 3, 2012 at 3:17 pm
I also wanted to add:
WHAT IN THE EVERLOVING FUCK!
January 3, 2012 at 4:48 pm
The Ginger: “MY MIND IS FULL OF FUCK!”
January 3, 2012 at 5:58 pm
Here you go, SpyGlassez:
January 3, 2012 at 3:24 pm
I wish that I could cancel my Paypal account. Unfortunately I can’t. But, the more I hear about them, the more I wish that I could.
January 3, 2012 at 3:33 pm
I know, it’s not easy. I switched my Redbubble payments to check but it means I may never see money from them because they only write checks in increments of $100. I’ve moved to Google checkout for most online things. But I’m worried that I’m forgetting something somewhere between now and when my 45 days are up…
January 3, 2012 at 3:47 pm
I do freelance writing, and the companies I work through will only pay through Paypal. Therefore, I’m stuck with them. The best I can do is get my money out as soon as I get paid.
January 3, 2012 at 9:41 pm
same here, I have so many payments coming in from so many sites once a month, and no other option to receive that much needed money.
January 3, 2012 at 10:44 pm
Sadly, I’m in the same boat. I’ve been with them since 1999, but this.. Gods above AND below, how I wish I could kill that account!
January 3, 2012 at 3:26 pm
So, a call to arms, then?
January 3, 2012 at 3:26 pm
The buyer here seems like the real asshole. If they were willing to pay that much for an instrument, even if there was a dispute about the actual label, the age and quality of the instrument should have been obvious to them when they received it, and they should have just arranged to get a refund and send it back (even at the seller’s expense). But they chose to call it “counterfeit”, so now they enter a no-man’s land, where apparently if you knowingly send someone a counterfeit item, YOU can be prosecuted (even if you’re a buyer who received a counterfeit item unknowingly); and PayPal’s User Agreement does say that if someone files a claim of counterfeit against you, you will not receive the item back and it may be destroyed. So while we all know PayPal is full of daily douchebaggery, it’s the buyer who really caused this tragedy through their unwillingness to be reasonable.
January 3, 2012 at 4:52 pm
and let’s say for the sake of argument that the buyer didn’t claim it was counterfeit when they knew it wasn’t, but told paypal that it was not the type of violin it was labelled as (and paypal assumed that meant counterfeit). Then Paypal tells the buyer to destroy the item and send them photo evidence. The buyer could choose not to be a douche by (1) insisting on sending the item back to the seller, since it’s a misunderstanding or (2) find a picture of a broken violin on the internet, and send back the violin without paypal knowing.
January 3, 2012 at 9:07 pm
That makes perfect sense and is a fair and reasonable solution to the issue. Perhaps that’s why it didn’t happen that way.
January 3, 2012 at 3:28 pm
Please please PLEASE ask Erica to reveal the eBay identity or name of this violin-killer so I can block them on eBay and warn fellow instrument-sellers.
January 4, 2012 at 8:36 am
Not just instrument sellers, ANY sellers you know.
January 3, 2012 at 3:29 pm
This just makes me feel sick inside.
January 3, 2012 at 3:30 pm
This is…. unbelievable. As a classical musician, all I can say is WTF! Truly unbelievable. We should unleash the hounds on PayPal again for this poor lady.
January 3, 2012 at 3:38 pm
Holy Jesusfuck on a goddamn unicycle, I can’t even describe how fucking dense this action was. How on earth is this the proper procedure for a disputed transaction in the first place?
January 3, 2012 at 4:07 pm
There’s quite a process that has to occur before PayPal would tell someone to destroy something. Per their UA:
10. Your Liability – Actions We May Take.
If a buyer files a Significantly Not as Described (SNAD) Claim for an item they purchased from you, you will generally be required to accept the item back and refund the buyer the full purchase price plus original shipping costs. You will not receive a refund on your PayPal fees. Further, if you lose a SNAD Claim because we, in our sole discretion, reasonably believe the item you sold is counterfeit, you will be required to provide a full refund to the buyer and you will not receive the item back (it will be destroyed). PayPal Seller protection will not cover your liability.
January 3, 2012 at 4:26 pm
I still don’t get how PayPal could decide it’s what they want to call counterfeit. Yes, if I was trying to sell a Picasso for $2500 when it’s obviously hanging in an art museum, well, yeah… call it counterfeit. But when in the hell did they become experts in the area of musical instruments? When did they become the policemen of the counterfeit instrument world? Or, you know, any world?
January 3, 2012 at 5:39 pm
Seriously, since when is PayPal the leading authority on musical instrument authenticity? They wouldn’t know a Stradivarius from their own grubby nutsacks!
In any situation, returning the item would be the right thing to do, over destroying it.
January 3, 2012 at 4:45 pm
There is a difference between trying to figure out a knock off coach bag or prada sunglasses (which is why those regulations are in place) and an 1940′s violin. I can not for a moment believe the anyone at paypal is qualified to do so – unless there was some third party verification that is missing from this story.
January 3, 2012 at 4:57 pm
i believe that’s what happened here. one of the customer service people at paypal applied the policies for purses to an antique. they probably had the right intention but didn’t understand that antiques have value outside of labels. (I wrote more about the issue in a previous response)
January 4, 2012 at 12:54 pm
Eatsy, you’re probably right. The problem is, if they don’t understand the true value of antiques, they should not be in the position of determining any antique to be “counterfeit.” Period. A well-known luthier should have been consulted, and that is that.
January 4, 2012 at 2:01 pm
How anyone at any level of the PooPal customer service chain is qualified to make this sort of brutal, culturally insensitive, brainless decree … it’s creepy and painful to contemplate the robotic minds and lack of empathy involved.
While the Regretsy Christmas issue was bad, if this turns out to be as presented, it will have motivated me to cancel my PayPal account.
January 3, 2012 at 11:29 pm
That doesn’t sound like much of a process, or at least it isn’t described. It sounds like “if someone reports an item as counterfeit and we decide it is, it gets destroyed”.
January 3, 2012 at 3:55 pm
At April’s command, unleash hell!
January 3, 2012 at 3:56 pm
Enraged and going to be ill. I can’t even comprehend this.
January 3, 2012 at 3:58 pm
This makes me want to cry.
January 3, 2012 at 3:59 pm
can we spam their office with golden poo hats? or that poo bear from japan???
January 3, 2012 at 3:59 pm
As someone who played violin for 13 years, that picture is the equivalent of like, a clubbed baby seal :’(. I’d like to break that guy’s FACE into that many pieces!
January 3, 2012 at 4:51 pm
We agree with this 100%, but The Ginger would also “like to make him eat those pieces through his rectum.”
January 3, 2012 at 4:04 pm
Seems to me that the seller would have some legal recourse here, as her property was destroyed. The forced refund would mean that the merchandise was again hers. I would be going to court over this, either bringing the buyer to court or Paypal themselves. Paypal would have a hell of a time proving to a judge that the item was conterfiet, since -you know- they forced it to be destroyed without any professional advice.
January 4, 2012 at 8:04 am
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January 4, 2012 at 8:09 am
Notice where it says, (At Our Sole Discretion). Pay Pal retains the right to determine if the item is counterfeit or not. No where does it say that it is at the discretion of anyone else. I for one am not a fan of Pay Pal and quit using them years ago. The reason I don’t use them is I read the terms of service and if you ask me there is too much risk on both sides of the coin. For the buyer and the seller. Here is a clue, sell valuable items the old way. Make sure the transaction takes place face to face and that both the buyer and seller are mutually happy with the exchange. Selling something that valuable on E-bay to me is just not a wise thing to do. I am outraged at the fact that such a valuable piece of history was destroyed, but at the same time I am just as outraged by the way the seller went about selling something so valuable. This same sale could have taken place through Craigslist.org and the actual sale could have been done in person. In almost all cases there is risk.
January 5, 2012 at 1:25 am
I’m not sure I’d champion dealing locally via Craigslist as a way to get rid of your valuable goods while avoiding scammers. If we want to tsk-tsk the seller, we should probably sniff that the way to sell such an item is through a reputable dealer or auction house.
I tried to sell some furniture on Craigslist about a year ago and I got responses from no one but the scammers. Fortunately they were pretty stupid and easy to shake, but it really didn’t make me feel good about giving anyone from Craigslist my address, or agreeing to meet them while carrying valuable item. I’m pretty sure the only thing switching from PayPal to Craigslist would have done would have been turning a counterfeit-claim scam into either a) nothing or b) a punch to the gut followed by some jerk running off with her violin. Although to be fair, in the case of (a) she’d still have the violin.
January 4, 2012 at 12:06 pm
So far, we don’t know if the seller disclosed the label or not. All we know is that the buyer said it was a counterfeit. We’ve not been told what the original listing said.
January 3, 2012 at 4:19 pm
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January 3, 2012 at 5:34 pm
She did get paid before sending it. But Paypal freezes the money in your account while they investigate a claim.
If they rule in the other person’s favor, they take back the money they have frozen and return it to the buyer.
January 3, 2012 at 10:22 pm
Just wanted to add that for that kind of money, PayPal generally puts an automatic hold on the funds (so you CAN’T withdraw it) until a certain amount of time has passed or the buyer has left positive feedback. So that gives the buyer plenty of time to file a dispute before the seller can even touch the money.
This is one reason I would NEVER sell something this valuable online through PayPal. There are escrow companies that you can use for expensive things like this, I believe, although I’ve never used one personally.
I would go with an auction house or post on Craigslist for a local cash-only sale.
January 4, 2012 at 8:15 am
Yours is the only post I’ve seen that makes sense and is exactly what I thought of the subject. When selling something that valuable, you don’t use someone like ebay where there is so much risk. Here is a link to Paypal’s terms of service. It’s quite lengthy so if a person is smart, they’ll read them carefully. Paypal makes sure there tails as well as those of the buyer are covered. The seller uses the service at their own risk.
https://cms.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/marketingweb?cmd=_render-content&content_ID=ua/UserAgreement_full&locale.x=en_US
January 3, 2012 at 10:23 pm
(which is insane)
January 3, 2012 at 4:23 pm
I tweeted paypal about this. Odds of them replying are about the same as a herd of naked mole rats showing up to finish my work/wordsmithy for the day.
January 3, 2012 at 4:26 pm
I don’t know….something just feels off about this. Why would PayPal even suggest something like that? Am I the only one who is thinking this just doesn’t seem to add up?
January 3, 2012 at 10:24 pm
I can’t speak to this particular case, but in my years over on eBay’s discussion boards, I’ve heard of other situations in which PayPal has told buyers to destroy items suspected to be counterfeit. So that part isn’t so unbelievable. It DOES happen.
January 4, 2012 at 7:48 am
it happened to me. item was not counterfeit. luckily nowhere near this value. on a side note, during the past 12 years selling on ebay I’ve noticed that the higher an item price the more likely there is to be a dispute. disputes are ALWAYS in the buyer’s favor.
January 3, 2012 at 4:38 pm
You know, as angry as everyone may be at PayPal, I do feel that the buyer is about 85% to blame here.
Even if he is too big of a moron to realize what he has, there isn’t really any reason why the two parties couldn’t have found a way around it. Maybe a check for the $2500 sent to the buyer plus shipping, who would then return the violin upon receipt.
Anyone proud of destroying such a beautiful, old instrument (did he even have it appraised!?) deserves no such finery. I’m simply sorry he’s ruined it for someone who does.
Also, at $2500, Paypal ordering the destruction of a legitimate violin without appraisal is grounds for a lawsuit.
January 3, 2012 at 4:40 pm
(Well, I say that it’s grounds for a lawsuit but I’m not a lawyer, and I’m sure they have something in their user agreement that smears a bulletproof covering of dog manure over their asses. Still, I’d try.)
January 4, 2012 at 11:48 am
(Well, I say that it’s grounds for a lawsuit but I’m not a lawyer, and I’m sure they have something in their user agreement that smears a bulletproof covering of dog manure over their asses. Still, I’d try.)”
Favorite. Line. Ever.
January 4, 2012 at 11:51 am
Thanks. = )
January 3, 2012 at 4:47 pm
Ahhh… here it is:
“…if … in our sole discretion, reasonably believe the item you sold is counterfeit… you will not receive the item back (it will be destroyed).”
Their sole discretion. Glad to know PayPal hired Pinchas Zukerman to help make decisions like this- wait… what? Oh. Nevermind…
January 4, 2012 at 1:38 am
The key word here is reasonable. Accepting a (non-expert) buyer’s judgement that an object *verified by an expert* is not authentic is not reasonable. Unless paypal engaged another expert (they didn’t), or had proof the expert authentication was also fraudulent (they didn’t), they fail the reasonability test.
January 3, 2012 at 9:18 pm
I’m beginning to think the buyer found a suitable picture of a smashed violin (or smashed a cheapie like HalfNote’s $80 wonder) and submitted that as evidence while keeping the original, effectively getting it for free.
Not. Cool.
January 3, 2012 at 11:29 pm
I would think the seller would recognize the instrument, even in the pictured condition. Possibly even have photos taken before shipping it away, to compare features. Something like where the dark/light areas of the wood’s grain fell when compared to the curves and shape of the body of the instrument could help to positively identify it.
January 4, 2012 at 8:46 am
Ah, you say “Anyone proud of destroying such a beautiful, old instrument…deserves no such finery. I’m simply sorry he’s ruined it for someone who does.” The sad part is, he didn’t ruin it for someone else, he ruined it for COUNTLESS someone elses…who knows how many hands this violin could have passed through in the future, or how many people could have had joy from hearing it played? I’m so sad right now. Hug me?
January 3, 2012 at 4:45 pm
Stupidity and lack of common sense must be a job requirement for Paypal’s employees.
January 3, 2012 at 5:01 pm
I’m sure they have a very large pool of potential employees to pick from. After all who wouldn’t want to get paid minimum wage to have people yell at you on the phone and cuss you out via email?
January 3, 2012 at 4:54 pm
language fails me at this moment, so full is my brain of wtfery. the buyer needs to evaluate their worth on this planet, because idgaf who told me, i would never have done this. i would have sent it back and faked a pic, it would have hurt to destroy any instrument, let alone an antique (of any kind). paypal should have to take reasonable steps to verify counterfeit items, like oh idk, TAKE IT TO SOMEONE WHO KNOWS THINGS. if they’re going to take payments for items commonly disputed, then they need to learn about these things before they destroy something. there is no recovering this, no remaking, it’s gone forever, and there’s one less piece of history in the world.
January 3, 2012 at 4:58 pm
I agree that the buyer is to blame for much of this. Of course, he wouldn’t have gotten away with it without PayPal’s douchebaggery. I hope we can learn more about this.
I’m glad I canceled my PayPal account, and it’s going to stay canceled.
January 3, 2012 at 4:59 pm
Erica, my sweet,
GET.
A.
LAWYER – NOW.
There is absolutely no reason in this country (yes, even though the President has signed indefinite detention of American citizens into federal law) that YOU should eat the cost of this stupidity.
I would gladly donate to your legal fund!
January 3, 2012 at 5:17 pm
First, I have to admit I didn’t really know much of anything about Regretsy until I looked it up on Wikipedia just now
, but Helen I’ve got to thank you for shining your not inconsiderable light on this. I registered so that I could.
Secondly, Erica, I hope you’re reading this, because I wanted to let you know that I just happen to work one building over from one of the foremost collections of musical instruments (early and otherwise) on the continent if not in the world, the National Music Museum. Needless to say, I know some people there, and I’ve shared this on their Facebook wall tonight and will follow up with them in person tomorrow in hopes that they might be able to provide Paypal with at least a bit of *ahem* education on the error of their ways in this.
Doncha just love the Internet?
Chris
January 4, 2012 at 6:47 am
Okay! Busy morning at work today, so instead of a personal visit (yet), I’ve fired off a quick email to the National Music Museum to bring this to their attention, but if I don’t hear back from them by the end of the day I’ll walk over and try and talk to somebody in person.
Yep, still angry about this. Paypal need to be hounded over this from every direction until they do right by Erica (though they can never really undo the harm they’ve done here). I’m reminded of the words of The Bloggess: “Please stand by for a demonstration of relevancy.”
C.
January 3, 2012 at 5:23 pm
THIS. You know, I’ve come across counterfeit MONEY before, that I knew without a shadow of a doubt was fake. However, I was STILL not allowed to keep the money or destroy it. I simply had to give it back to the person.
PayPal has no authority to do these things, why has no one brought a suit against them? Having other people’s property destroyed, freezing people’s only source of income. I’ve never heard of any company being allowed to do things like this.
If you went into Best Buy and they claimed you missed a payment, even if you had a receipt, and then reposessed your laptop, you would lose your fucking mind and then sue the everloving crap out of them. Why are there no rules if something happens on the internet? This is still a company.
January 3, 2012 at 5:31 pm
I feel that we should avenge this violin, and the seller.
I’m new to this site, but I’ve seen how powerful and organized it’s members can be. Between all of you, you could start something big. I wouldn’t be surprised if someone on this site gathered enough people who have been screwed over by PayPal to get on the news.
That may seem silly, but even though PayPal had a lot of PR damage from the Regretsy Christmas debacle, that was still just on the internet. So many people still don’t know what PayPal does.
I just can’t stand to see people not work for their money. Being dirt poor and honest, and watching lazy and crooked people making money forts, is like a dozen antique violin pieces jammed into my heart.
January 4, 2012 at 1:03 pm
“I just can’t stand to see people not work for their money. Being dirt poor and honest, and watching lazy and crooked people making money forts, is like a dozen antique violin pieces jammed into my heart.”
YES. ExACTly.
January 4, 2012 at 7:55 am
sadly many innocent people unintentionally receive counterfeit money every day via store change and are unable to use it. They usually don’t realize they have it until they try to deposit it at the bank. My husband has told me many stories of customers who broke down in tears in his office while he tried to explain that the bank by law had to confiscate the money.
January 3, 2012 at 5:28 pm
Hum….I sense a new Regretsy twitter game coming on. #NewSlogansForPaypal, perhaps?
January 3, 2012 at 5:28 pm
Every facet of this is horrible. And sickening and sad and a dreadful comment on how both people and companies now operate. I can only imagine how awful she must have felt when she opened that email and saw that photo. “Upsetting” doesn’t even come close. I thought cutting up quilts was bad…
January 3, 2012 at 5:33 pm
I’m a collections manager at a museum and this just offends me. Regardless of whether or not the artefact has an accurate label, its age and quality can be assessed in other ways. The application of even a forged label becomes a part of its life story and can tell you so much about the object! A violin like this one probably had a remarkable story and could have likely qualified for a cultural heritage designation. What kind of seller would break it up even if they did dispute the label? What kind of bad, stupid, hateful, awful person would do that? To screw the seller out of the money is even worse.
January 3, 2012 at 5:34 pm
I have a violin that I paid about $200 for that says “Stradivarius” on the label. It’s about a hundred years old and has been through a pretty rough life (at one point, before I got it, it was a pile of moldy pieces in a Wal-mart bag). The guy didn’t have to tell me that it wasn’t a real Stradivarius when I bought it (which he didn’t…nor did he try to pass it off as one)…but the thing sounds better than any other violin I’ve played, and it’s freaking beautiful.
January 3, 2012 at 6:53 pm
I can’t tell you how envious I am of people who can play instruments. It honestly makes me cry.
It’s not really related to this article, but I just had to say it.
January 4, 2012 at 12:11 pm
It is never to late to learn. I just had my first violin lesson last night, and I’m 50 years old, lol.
January 3, 2012 at 5:39 pm
Wait, she doesn’t get her violin back and or her money? Is there anywhere I can chip in a few bucks to help her at least get her money back?
Jesus Christ PayPal, what is wrong with just doing a return?
January 3, 2012 at 5:39 pm
Erica: take PayPal to small claims court. They owe you because the way I see it, they ordered the destruction of YOUR personal property. By requesting to and having their payment refunded, the buyer relinquished ownership. The violin was thus yours at the time it was ordered destroyed by PayPal and destroyed by the buyer.
Consider the photo emailed to you by the smug buyer as evidence in your favor.
January 3, 2012 at 5:42 pm
This is the most Disheartening news i’ve ever seen.
That instrument could’ve been worth well over $5,000-$12,000 had the
douchebag buyer not smash it. Why the Fuck is PayPal doing all the
judgement on whether an instrument is counterfeit or not? It sickens me
to my stomach to see that DickPal coerced the buyer to destroy something
that is more than 60+ years old just to get a few bucks back. If the
seller chooses, She has the right to file suit against PayPal should she
still have the evidence with her.
January 3, 2012 at 5:45 pm
Argh! This is too idiotic! I went looking for information on how to close my account, found a link, clicked, and it’s been sitting there for several minutes now telling me “We’re finding answers…”
So… any of you FJLs know how to cancel an account? It’s not like they have a “You’re fucking morons, I want nothing more to do with you” button. Ah hell, if they did, I’d probably get in trouble for using it. Not a charity, or something.
Stupid thing is still claiming to be finding answers. Everything else on the site seems to be working fine, they just really don’t want me to find that particular answer. Dorks.
January 3, 2012 at 5:59 pm
Oh never mind, I got tired of “We’re finding answers…” and started clicking things at random. I found it. It gave me great pleasure to tell them exactly why I’m cancelling my account.
I don’t dare show the photo to my cello, it would be frightened…
January 4, 2012 at 6:27 pm
Typing “close account” in the search box will give you several pages as results. Don’t pick the first one; it doesn’t work. The result that’s seemingly aimed at merchants will give you information on how to close your account.
Be warned that doing something like detaching your checking account first will fuck up your cookies, so you may have to go in and delete them all before PayPal will let you back on the site.
January 3, 2012 at 5:51 pm
At first I thought that this had to be the buyer pulling a scam on the seller, claiming that ‘oh it was PayPal’s idea to destroy your stuff and give me my money back, not mine!’ But then Erica said she actually contacted PayPal reps about this and just: what the fuck. I literally do not understand PayPal’s actions here at all. (I kind of understand the buyer’s actions, not to say they’re not scummy.)
January 3, 2012 at 5:59 pm
I’m an orchestra teacher and have seen my fair share of instrument destruction, but this is over the top. It makes every cell in my body angry. The buyer should be ashamed, as should PayPal. I canceled my account after the last incident. I may have to write a strongly worded email…
January 3, 2012 at 6:00 pm
Well, we’ve made it to Consumerist again: http://consumerist.com/2012/01/paypal-tells-buyer-to-destroy-purchased-violin-instead-of-return-for-refund.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
There’s got to be some other outlets that would be interested in this story. Erica’s hometown? Any musician forums y’all visit? Etc., etc.? Spread the word, folks.
January 3, 2012 at 6:01 pm
hometown as in local news… fuck it I need anotehr drink. This story makes me unable to form sentences.
January 4, 2012 at 7:03 am
i’m fairly certain violinist.com would be quite interested to hear this story.
i work VERY closely with a touring solo violinist. i’ve sent him this story and asked him to share it with his friends in the violin world.
January 3, 2012 at 6:03 pm
This is atrocious. Unbelievable, and completely disrespectful to the seller as well as the instrument itself.
I don’t know a whole lot about violins, but from having a few appraised, I know a bit. The last handwritten numbers on the label (’33, I think) following the century are a known sign of authenticity. I would not doubt that this was an antique.
Even if it wasn’t, this is still a disgrace. As someone who plays the violin, the photo really upsets me. No instrument should ever be destroyed like that, regardless of value.
I am truly sorry, Erica. Get a lawyer, and kick this guy’s ass! Fuck you Paypal.
January 3, 2012 at 6:14 pm
this is despicable. at the very least paypal needs to refund the seller.
my guess is that, since paypal was bought by ebay, they did this cos of the lawsuit over counterfeit–vuittons, i think it was. ebay lost & i think they lost fairly big [i imagine this can all be looked up further somewhere]. it probably is somehow paypal company policy to be under no circumstances involved in “fraud”–though very very obviously the people of paypal have NO idea what might constitute actual fraud in the violin world–or, probably, in the world’s populated by other esoteric people & their everlovin esoterica.
i am part of that world myself, although not in violinland [i just sold a pair of shoes to a museum for a thousand bucks] & while i know my field pretty much backwards & forwards theres still always stuff about it i dont know.
as per:
i cant imagine the vastness of ignorance at paypal.
as above:
is there any way to help?
January 3, 2012 at 6:38 pm
I think that’s exactly what happened – they destroy counterfeit merchandise so that it doesn’t wind up back on ebay and they don’t have to deal with it again.
But you can’t apply the same rule to a $2 knockoff Coach bag and an antique violin. A label in dispute does not mean the violin is worthless.
January 3, 2012 at 7:10 pm
Much like Han van Meegeren, the artist who forged Vermeers to trick the Nazis. Sure, they were forged Vermeers, but they were still well-done paintings, and supposedly for a while they fetched higher prices than real Vermeers. Fake doesn’t equal valueless; something’s provenance may be disputed, but it could still be of value.
January 3, 2012 at 9:22 pm
Edward Dolnick, in The Forger’s Spell, makes some convincing arguments that the van Meegerens aren’t even all that as paintings. YMMV, of course. (The book is a cracking good read, BTW.)
January 4, 2012 at 5:47 am
Cool, I’ll have to look that up…
January 3, 2012 at 7:20 pm
i agree.
i know that they have no idea about most of the items people sell–it wouldnt make any sense that they did. when i was a bookdealer a book rat i knew told me it took 100,000 hours to know enough about used books to sell them–it was a book rat [meaning: a book addict who often works in every book- &/or thriftstore to have the best access to books. i've known book rats who had 60000 books, 900000 books {& those are the correct number of zeroes}]. i couldnt expect paypal’s temps to know any of this stuff.
& they dont. so under NO circumstances should they be allowed to dictate what does & does not get destroyed. perhaps $2500 is enough money that a legal case could be filed? cos, at the very least, they should refund the seller. but theyre gonna demand arbitration–which is, at the very least redux, they shouldve demanded between buyer/seller.
i dont know what else to do.
January 3, 2012 at 6:21 pm
I had grief with them, too. They told me I couldn’t take donations to support a website. What business is it of theirs?
And why the hell would they want it destroyed? At least it could go to an appraiser.
What fuckwits.
January 3, 2012 at 6:24 pm
While Paypal will try to wriggle out of anything under the cover of user agreements – regardless of ‘terms and conditions’ there is still responsibility. Lets say you come to my website, sign up and agree to my terms. I then let you use my site.
However, after 4 weeks, I come round to your house and take your first born, while also taking your car. When you call the police, assuming you don’t beat the living daylight out of me first, I show them the terms and conditions you agreed to when joining my site. They state clearly in paragraph 67555, subsection 227262 column 444 that you agreed to what I am doing when joining my site.
It’s not really going to wash, is it? No. I’d be charged with theft and kidnap. Period. Why is it that a large corporation can hide behind ‘user agreements’ and ‘terms’ and then such behaviour is OK? The simple answer is – its not OK, but corporations will get away with it until people sue them and make them realise that is no longer OK.
January 3, 2012 at 6:25 pm
How in fucking hell do they explain the reasoning behind this??? WHY on earth wouldn’t they just say “Send it back to the seller” and tell the seller to refund the money. This makes absolutely NO sense. I don’t understand why anyone would ever do this.
January 3, 2012 at 6:29 pm
I am literally sickened by this story. I hope whomever told the buyer to do this (and the buyer) rot in a fiery horrible place.
This trumps every quilt “repurposed” into placemats or wedding dresses that I’ve ever seen.
I don’t understand the logic behind this at all.
January 3, 2012 at 6:29 pm
PayPal is vile. I curse them to a flaming eternity in Hades.
But am I the only person here who thinks the e-mail April received on this subject is nothing more than a troll? I mean, what proof is there that any of this ever happened, except for an e-mail and a photo of what may or may not be what the author of the e-mail claims it is?
I smell a plot to get all of Regretsy’s readers foaming at the mouth, and it appears to be working.
January 3, 2012 at 7:07 pm
Well if so, it’s a well-laid plot, because Erica posted on PayPal’s Facebook wall about it a couple weeks ago. Still not impossible, I grant you.
January 4, 2012 at 1:08 pm
Right, because April was born yesterday, and goes public with every sob story she receives without vetting the hell out of them first.
Actually, she tried to help resolve this for the seller through her own contacts at PayPal and got no response before escalating to a public shaming. If PayPal was smart, they would know better by now than to ignore the concerns of the very badass Ms. Winchell.
January 3, 2012 at 6:32 pm
I bought a pair of Raybans off eBay in 2010 and they turned out to be fake.
I filed a claim, received my money back without being told to destroy the sunglasses. Yes, I understand $250 is a lot different than $2,500, but consistency is key. If that’s your policy, make is so across the board.
Still doesn’t make it right though.
January 3, 2012 at 6:33 pm
I wondered how widespread this story had become, so I did a bit of googling and ran across this wonderful comment:
http://neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=457676&page=2
“I am on the outrage train. They already fucked with Regretsy over some donations she took.
Also, the lady who runs Regretsy was on SwatKats, so I will follow her into hell itself. “
I couldn’t say it any better or agree more….
January 4, 2012 at 1:07 am
April was in SwatKats?!
As if my devotion didn’t run deep enough all ready…
January 3, 2012 at 6:34 pm
It was bad enough when they cost me $80 in NSF Charges when they decided to help themselves to my checking account for my eBay fees (which were completely programmed to come off my credit card, but they were completely indignant about being able to go into my checking account unauthorized)…. .but this, this is totally inexcusable.
Please take them to small claims court. Please.
January 3, 2012 at 6:43 pm
And, it ain’t just violins (who knew there was a purse forum):
http://forum.purseblog.com/ebay-forum/buyer-told-paypal-destroy-my-800-genuine-handbag-694006.html
(entry 54 is kind of encouraging…maybe)
January 3, 2012 at 7:20 pm
That is very interesting indeed. Grab me my pitchfork and a blunt rock.
January 3, 2012 at 7:05 pm
I can’t joke about this. It’s vile, detestable, putrescent. That something so beautiful, that would create beauty, was destroyed is contemptible.
Diane Ackerman once wrote about Strads (I think it was in “A Natural History of the Senses”, one of my all-time favorite books, and of the theory that skilled use of violins by great musicians over the years could result in molecular changes in the wood, resulting in better tone from the instrument…or as she put it, “the wood remembers.” And this memory has been cut short.
Take them all to court. I’ll donate a little bit if it comes to that.
January 3, 2012 at 7:23 pm
I suddenly have visions of dressing up in a Phantom of the Opera/Poe Toaster type outfit, lurking outside PayPal HQ, playing stuff like “Danse Macabre” and the Funeral March, following the execs around, making sure they’re haunted by violin sounds.
January 3, 2012 at 9:25 pm
That’s a poetic thought, but it reminds me of my question about homeopathy: if the water “remembers” all the substances that have been in it, how come it doesn’t taste salty? Or like fish/animal/human shit?
January 4, 2012 at 5:49 am
Ha! Too true. The “wood remembers” bit is a nice thought but yeah, when you think about it, it is kinda silly. And don’t get me started on homeopathy…
January 4, 2012 at 9:14 am
Homeopathics aren’t supposed to *taste* like anything.
January 3, 2012 at 7:09 pm
Hypocrites. There are lots of counterfeit stuff sold on eBay and paid with PP all the time.
January 3, 2012 at 7:10 pm
This made me cry. Balls out weeping. I have no other words.
January 3, 2012 at 7:14 pm
And, it just gets worse:
http://forum.purseblog.com/ebay-forum/warning-paypal-just-made-me-lose-20-thousand-681190.html
Here are paypal’s / ebay’s policy on such things (search for “destroy”):
https://cms.paypal.com/al/cgi-bin/?cmd=_render-content&content_ID=ua/BuyerProtComp_full
http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/buyer-protection.html#authentic1
January 4, 2012 at 12:53 am
To be fair, the first link doesn’t make sense. She’s claiming she’s out 20k; 11k paypal and 9k for the original purchase which the buyer kept or destroyed. It’s one or the other, she wasn’t going to end up with both. But apart from that minor pedantry can I just say how sorry I feel for that poor woman and how much paypal sucks balls.
January 4, 2012 at 9:19 am
And let that be a reminder to everyone, don’t sell something of great value to a buyer with NO FEEDBACK. That’s always been my policy, and there’s a prime example why I’ll never change it. I set a cap of $20 to someone with no feedback. Simple as.
January 3, 2012 at 7:15 pm
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
January 3, 2012 at 7:18 pm
I can’t help being curious if/how well it is documented that PayPal did in fact instruct the buyer to do this. Could it be possible that the buyer merely said PayPal told them to do it? I mean, I wouldn’t exactly trust anything coming from someone willing to smash a violin and send a picture of its ruin to the seller.
Don’t get me wrong, I hate PayPal. They suck with a suck that endureth and ceaseth not. But I just want to understand the details as well as possible before I go get the pitchfork off the hooks.
January 3, 2012 at 7:29 pm
There really is language about destroying counterfeit merchandise in their TOU, but it’s not meant for things like this. You would think someone would have intervened to find a more reasonable solution.
January 4, 2012 at 10:05 am
I see now, on further reading.
Un fucking real.
January 3, 2012 at 7:21 pm
GODDAMITTMUTHERFUCKERTWATSHUFFLECOCKSTROPPINGBITCH!
I have played violin for 33 years. Both of my children play violin. I inherited mine from a dear gentleman who mentored me, and had led his own orchestra in the 1930′s through 1960′s. When I was a naive young thing, I used tweezers to pull out the “annoying piece of paper” that was rattling around inside. I know I am not in possession of a Stradivarius, but the tone of this heirloom is rich and resonates beautifully. I suppose since I can’t prove that it isn’t a “counterfeit” I should back over it with my minivan???
What a tweaking douche to post a smug photo of a wantonly destroyed work of art, just to pour salt in the seller’s Paypal infested wound. Fuck that buyer, and fuck paypal.
January 3, 2012 at 7:22 pm
The violin survived the Nazis, but it couldn’t survive PayPal…
January 4, 2012 at 5:33 am
That…is a truly frightening thought.
January 3, 2012 at 7:31 pm
Who… who could crush a violin like that? My eyes teared up and I don’t even play the fucking violin. PayPal is run by tone-deaf sadists.
January 3, 2012 at 7:32 pm
So what I’m taking away from this is that if a buyer even mentions to Paypal that there is a possibility that an item might be “counterfeit,” they are immediately ordered to destroy it.
Do you realize the hypothetical number of priceless works of art that could be at risk because this fucked up company doesn’t know how to conduct business? Sickening.
January 3, 2012 at 7:54 pm
This isn’t the first time I’ve read about Paypal instructing people to destroy items thought to be counterfeit. I say “thought” because there were no verifications or proof presented if the items were really fake or not. =/
My brother plays and this is just heartbreaking. My stubby/clumsy FJL fingers could only master the baritone. I can only wish to have learned to play violin.
January 3, 2012 at 8:00 pm
Those aren’t REAL children being helped out at Christmas! I DEMAND you destroy them. And, send a photo.
January 3, 2012 at 8:19 pm
The whole Christmas Catastrophe was one thing… but (and don’t get me wrong, the other was terrible) this might actually make me cry… the whole donation ordeal could be /remedied/… you can’t /remedy/ the destruction of such a beautiful and old instrument… that’s just terrible…
January 3, 2012 at 8:20 pm
As a musician, this makes me want to vomit. I can’t even get raged up about it. I’m crying and feel sick that someone would do that.
God what a loss.
January 4, 2012 at 12:56 am
This. I am shaking with rage right now.
January 3, 2012 at 8:26 pm
Paypal may require you to punch an infirm old woman in the face and to provide evidence of said battery.
January 3, 2012 at 8:26 pm
I’d be interested to see the auction description for this violin. Chances are the buyer filed an Ebay claim saying the violin was counterfeit. That would be the only reason for Ebay to require destruction of the item. If they seller mentioned “Stradivarius” anywhere in the description, then that’s the problem. Most mass produced violins from the late 1800′s and early 1900′s were labeled “Stradivarius” due to being copied from the design. This is dirt common knowledge in the violin trade. Chances are someone had “buyers remorse” and came up with this lame counterfeit excuse to file a claim and Ebay didn’t know any better and ordered it destroyed. Sad thing is… most of these old violins are very high quality and worth thousands of $$. I really feel for the seller.
January 4, 2012 at 2:11 pm
The buyer did NOT claim it was a Strad.
January 4, 2012 at 2:11 pm
Also, I’m a jackass. The SELLER didn’t call it a Strad, is what I meant. Dammit.
January 3, 2012 at 8:26 pm
So, what if I adopted a baby and paid through paypal for the services, and later decided they gave me the wrong kind of baby. Would paypal make me destroy the baby and provide photographic proof?
PAYPAL MURDERS BABIES.
January 3, 2012 at 8:38 pm
Rumpelstiltskin > Paypal
January 4, 2012 at 1:05 am
Well, they kill music and Christmas, so why not babies as well?
January 3, 2012 at 8:29 pm
This is an insane policy. Destruction of an item should never be a possible requirement for money return. Paypal is yet another good idea gotten to damn big for its britches. On a different note, a musician friend of mine swears the pieces in the picture are from a cello, not a violin. Fraud email to begin with?
January 3, 2012 at 9:32 pm
Well, there’s not a good sense of scale here, but I’m leaning towards violin. The fingerboard is shorter than the length of the longest piece of either the face or the back, whereas a cello fingerboard should about as long as the length of the body. Also the neck doesn’t taper much, which suggests a shorter instrument.
Uggh, I still can’t look at this thing for very long. This fucking hurts. Violin saved my life when I was a teenager with a lot of problems and I just even process this… even if this was somehow a shooped picture the buyer turned in for fraud and he still has a violin, that means somebody’s instrument got smashed for no good reason.
January 3, 2012 at 10:54 pm
good eye. I was wondering about that too. Plus there’s not enough pieces for a cello.
January 3, 2012 at 8:36 pm
I guess I am jaded, but I see two possibilities here. One is that the buyer is just a total scum who went out of their way to buy this violin with the intent to claim it was “counterfeit” so they could get their money back and destroy the item. And to be clear – if that’s what they did – they are the lowest form of vermin. Option two is that the buyer disputed the provenance of the violin – as the seller says they did and happens sometimes – and asked the seller for a refund. The only reason it would have escalated with PP to the point of a SNAD claim is if the seller refused to refund the money and have the item shipped back to them. I just get the sense that there’s a piece of this puzzle missing, or maybe I’m just so naive that I’m having a hard time believing someone would risk $2500 and go out of their way to go through the hassle of a PayPal dispute just to screw with a seller. I don’t see an up-side to that action.
January 3, 2012 at 8:42 pm
In case there’s any question: PayPal’s policy of using its “sole discretion” to decide if an item is counterfeit is total bullshit and they are pigs. I’m not excusing them from culpability in this matter; just saying that I feel like there are some parts of the story that aren’t clear.
January 3, 2012 at 9:05 pm
or if it is cello pieces, like someone else said, maybe the buyer gets their money back and keeps the violin…
January 3, 2012 at 8:40 pm
You definitely need to lawyer up. When it comes to a dispute under a terms of service contract, you need someone knowledgable in the law to carefully read not only the contract but also research any applicable state and/or Federal laws.
The facts as you described them fail the smell test- it just doesn’t make sense, on its face, to have a policy so unilaterally biased against merchants; it would have a chilling effect and scare sellers away from the service. IANAL so I can’t tell you more than “You should get a lawyer” but I suspect that if there isn’t a remedy readily available to you in a court on your own, there are probably enough other aggrieved sellers to get a class together. It’s definitely not the first that I’ve heard of Paypal screwing over sellers, either, but it just seems particularly egregious to instruct a buyer to destroy unique valuable goods; it leaves no room for a real remedy short of substantial damages.
Lawyer the hell up.
January 3, 2012 at 8:49 pm
Heresy. Sacrilege. Desecration.
I don’t even have the vocab to spew obscenities right now.
January 3, 2012 at 8:52 pm
I started reading through the comments, but I felt so ill I couldn’t continue. I played violin for many years, as did my sister, and then my daughter as well, and the thought of that buyer actually smashing that violin is just disgusting! Couldn’t he have gone to a flea market and got an old, crappy violin that was no longer playable to smash to make Paypal happy, and not destroy a lovely old instrument that I’m sure sounded wonderful? How can people be so STUPID? Oh my God, it’s just horrible. I honestly feel like he killed a puppy or something — old violins have a magic to them that is impossible to duplicate in a new instrument. WHY, idiot buyer? WHY?????
January 3, 2012 at 8:55 pm
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
January 3, 2012 at 9:19 pm
All the photo proves is that the buyer destroyed it, which is what Paypal told them to do in order to get a refund.
January 3, 2012 at 9:28 pm
Worse than that, Helen: all the photo proves is that A violin was destroyed. Not necessarily the violin that was bought.
January 4, 2012 at 9:34 am
However, the buyer went out of the way to clearly position the label front and center. I think this is to show the seller that it is in fact the same violin.
January 3, 2012 at 9:46 pm
astat143
January 3, 2012 at 8:26 pm
I’d be interested to see the auction description for this violin. Chances are the buyer filed an Ebay claim saying the violin was counterfeit. That would be the only reason for Ebay to require destruction of the item. If they seller mentioned “Stradivarius” anywhere in the description, then that’s the problem. Most mass produced violins from the late 1800′s and early 1900′s were labeled “Stradivarius” due to being copied from the design. This is dirt common knowledge in the violin trade. Chances are someone had “buyers remorse” and came up with this lame counterfeit excuse to file a claim and Ebay didn’t know any better and ordered it destroyed. Sad thing is… most of these old violins are very high quality and worth thousands of $$. I really feel for the seller.
January 3, 2012 at 9:51 pm
The point is that many antique violins of that era were “labeled” Stradivarius because they were made in the STYLE of, so yes it’s “counterfeit” by modern standards, HOWEVER these are freaking HIGH QUALITY musical instruments MADE BY HAND by MASTER LUTHIERS.
Nothing to be smashing into bits and pieces.
And if one is willing to plunk down that kinda cash, you would think they were already aware of that fact, but maybe they just figured they were getting a REALLY AMAZING DEAL ON EBAY!
*sigh* my musician self is weeping.
January 3, 2012 at 10:29 pm
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January 3, 2012 at 10:49 pm
I don’t know the details of the listing, having not read it. However many violins of that time period, were labeled as “stradivarius” because they were replicated off of that style of Luthier. Because he was fucking amazing, and no one else has come close to creating the quality of instrument that he did. Does this help?
It’s nothing like a fake Gucci handbag.
If you look on the picture it doesn’t actually say Stradivarius, I just used them as an example.
Let me say it this way:
TRADEMARKED GUCCI HANDBAG does NOT EQUAL commonly labeled luthier antique violin
January 4, 2012 at 12:17 am
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January 4, 2012 at 10:29 am
Nobody ever said that the buyer “should have been happy” with the violin. People are merely saying that it should have been RETURNED rather than DESTROYED.
January 3, 2012 at 11:21 pm
The ignorance in this one here is overwhelming.
January 4, 2012 at 12:26 am
….Dude, if the buyer thought he was getting a no-shit Strad for $2500, then he was a goddamn moron in the first place.
January 3, 2012 at 9:02 pm
OMG. This actually makes me feel ill. I own a 258 year old French violin with a disputed label. It was most likely made by an apprentice of the maker on the label and this was NOT an uncommon occurrence. I can’t even blame Paypal completely (while their request was unbelievable, they aren’t violin dealers and have *no* business acting with any amount of authority.) when a person that obviously knows and appreciates violins enough to spend $2,500. would feel there was anything appropriate about following through with such an absurd request! It’s more than apparent from the photos that the instrument was attractive and well cared for. I’m just so sad for the seller, and for the loss of the violin. It had SO many more years of beautiful music left in it.
January 3, 2012 at 9:08 pm
Exactly. I’m gutted at the thought of it. I have a student made, antique, which says it was a Strad, and obviously it’s not, but it is a GORGEOUS instrument, and is perfect for a student. Probably not worht anywhere near what this one was, but the point is that they were all labeled that because they were copied “in the style of”
I would think the Person who was buying it might have known, especially if they were willing to fork over $2500 to begin with.
January 3, 2012 at 9:35 pm
Yeah, and did the buyer even try to contact the seller for a refund before going to PayPal? The seller doesn’t say. But if he didn’t, then he was definitely in error.
January 3, 2012 at 9:03 pm
If this has happened to other people like in the purse forums (and who knows who else!), there ought to be a class action lawsuit.
January 3, 2012 at 9:15 pm
How low can you possibly be? I’m a young man of only 25 years; with a love of historic items such as this. A friend JUST showed me this and I knew I had to put my 2 cents in. I pray that I never meet the idiot who did this to you. Such art and beauty needs to be saved and not lost to such idiotic and shameless acts.
January 3, 2012 at 9:32 pm
I hope this woman sues paypal – if not for her sake, then for the sake of others this might happen to. At the very least, PayPal should have contacted her and given her a chance to defend the sale, rather than just taking someone’s word for it and ordering them to destroy it. Their actions were reckless, and they should be held accountable. I hope she sues them.
January 3, 2012 at 9:37 pm
No. 1 on Reddit!
January 3, 2012 at 9:38 pm
This is appalling. I wish that Etsy allowed an easy way to pay without having to use Paypal. It’s the one place I haven’t been able to avoid using it and having buyers use it, because even for credit card payments buyers have to use the guest checkout through Paypal.
January 3, 2012 at 9:50 pm
In case there’s any question: PayPal’s policy of using its “sole discretion” to decide if an item is counterfeit is total bullshit and they are pigs. I’m not excusing them from culpability in this matter; just saying that I feel like there are some parts of the story that aren’t clear.
January 3, 2012 at 10:30 pm
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January 3, 2012 at 10:32 pm
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January 4, 2012 at 12:21 am
the problem is that paypal has no idea whether it was ‘counterfeit’ or not. nobody at paypal would have any idea. they have no musical instrument specialists at paypal, for heavens sake. why would they?
since it is a dispute between two parties over something which nobody at paypal is qualified to arbitrate the solution they offered should have by no means been a final & fatal one. there is no longer any possible way to continue this dispute! theres no way to have it adjudicated by a knowledgeable & qualified party! paypal fatale! what a mess!
the only thing that seems odd to me is the photograph, which seems like neither a violin nor a cello but something someone tossed a few filters on in photoshop. i have no idea if thats what happened or not, but i can certainly see paypal’s in this case foolish & final decision convincing the buyer to mock up that necessary photo proof & then go sell the violin elsewhere.
FEH to paypal today.
January 4, 2012 at 12:22 am
& apologies to all here for not closing my stupid tag. i didnt know i was that tired.
January 4, 2012 at 12:40 am
But this item is NOT counterfeit in the way that a handbag or sunglasses might be i.e. deliberately mislabeled by the seller in order to fool the buyer. Even with the incorrect label this violin is still a valuable antique and even the moronic mouthbreathers at PP should be able to recognise that it’s not the same situation.
January 4, 2012 at 4:13 pm
Tigris, I suggest you read the story again. The item was authenticated by an expert. The buyer, NOT an expert, told PP it was a ‘fake’. PP did not employ an expert, but took the NON EXPERT buyer’s word. PP has a history of doing this.
It seems you have little knowledge of antiques and period items. Contemporary ‘knockoffs’ have value; on occasion, higher value than the ‘real thing’. Earlier you used a modern Gucci knockoff as an example. A better example is shoes copied from a Perugia design (ie, a knockoff) made in 1920. Not as valuable as genuine Perugias, but still valuable.
To put this in context, $2500 is NOTHING for a decent violin with some age in it – antique ‘brands’, such as Stradivarius, are worth hundreds of thousands.
Please note, I am not saying this item was a ‘fake’, I am saying IF the expert was wrong and IF this was a contemporary fake, it still had value, both monetary and historical. For it to be destroyed is a tragedy
January 3, 2012 at 10:18 pm
That photo is the most heartbreaking thing I have seen in ages. And to find out it was done deliberately…
For future reference, the appropriate response to being instructed by a call center employee to destroy a thing of beauty is “Fuck off and Die”. Escalate it until you speak with someone with some good fucking sense and the power to make a rational decision, or drop it and find another solution.
Has common fucking sense completely deserted humanity?
Maybe it is time to give the damned planet back to the insects.
January 3, 2012 at 10:35 pm
I am so disgusted I want to vomit. I have never used paypal and hope I never will!
January 3, 2012 at 10:40 pm
You know what’s funny?
I bought a DVD set from a seller a couple of years ago. When it arrived, I immediately knew it was counterfeit. As in, 100% certain. The box wasn’t right (had typos even in the company name!) and the discs had some generic printing on them and didn’t play properly (I only stuck one in my player out of curiosity).
I promptly filed a dispute with PayPal stating the reasons I knew it to be counterfeit. THE SELLER DIDN’T EVEN DENY IT, but sent me an email offering me a 50% refund to shut me up and talking about how this was such a great deal!
Nope, I escalated the dispute, offering to send pictures of the counterfeit discs to PayPal as proof. They ruled in my favor but TOLD ME TO SHIP THE DISCS BACK TO THE SELLER, even though I had rock-solid proof that they were bootlegs.
January 3, 2012 at 10:50 pm
“a couple of years ago” is the key here. They only implemented the anti-counterfeit scheme 2010.
January 4, 2012 at 10:08 am
I know for a fact that they were doing it before then. I posted about it on the eBay discussion boards at the time, and everyone was surprised that I wasn’t told to destroy it. By that point, I’d also heard about at least a couple of cases where so-called “counterfeit” purses had been destroyed.
They may have updated their policy since then, but it’s been around longer than that.
January 4, 2012 at 10:11 am
Here’s one discussion about this topic from 2008:
http://forums.ebay.com/db2/topic/Buyer-Central-Professional/Have-You-Read/1000693800?#msg2010266475
January 4, 2012 at 12:26 am
when we had a similar issue about five years ago paypal wouldnt do anything until i got a police report. i’m not making that up. i was actually very very sick at the time & i couldnt go down to rampart & get this done. so i called them & they didnt have any idea what i was talking about & they couldnt even figure out HOW to write a report for the problem. as an aside, this was actually just one element in something that cost around three hundred bucks [some part of protools, i think] which was useless & for which we got no reimbursement whatsoever. paypal just could not deal.
for the most part i’ve had minimal problems w/ them but the ones i have had were absolutely nutty. but the violin destruction beats, pun intended, all of them to dust.
January 3, 2012 at 10:46 pm
Oh, and before I sent the discs back to the seller, I printed out a label for each and every disc (there were like 30 of them – it was a whole TV series box set) that said “THIS IS COUNTERFEIT!” They went on the underside of each disc, and I blasted them with a hair dryer to make sure that they were nice and well-adhered. And then I slipped them back into the sleeves so you couldn’t see the labels.
So either a) they didn’t notice and sent them on to the next buyer, who would at least have been warned, or b) they noticed and had to remove all those labels individually without damaging the discs.
It just sickened me so much to have to send that back so they could resell it. But maybe at least I made it more difficult for them.
January 3, 2012 at 10:58 pm
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January 3, 2012 at 11:04 pm
Are you purposely being obtuse?
A valuable piece of music history was destroyed. That is what people are upset about. At the most, it should have been returned to the seller, not smashed into tiny bits.
It’s not like a handcarved wooden instrument is something you can just whip up in 5 min. like easy mac in the microwave.
Do you realize how many hours it would take to create such an instrument?
January 4, 2012 at 12:28 am
howsabout at the very least having it sent to paypal to have appraised? i’m sure the seller wouldve rather paid a hundred or two hundred bucks for an appraiser rather than lose both the money & the violin? howsabout that? very simple yet nobody at paypal was clever or bothered enough, i guess, to think.
January 4, 2012 at 10:15 am
The difference is that these were absolutely, 100% guaranteed counterfeit. I could have provided pictures that proved it (I seriously doubt that Paramount would have failed to capitalize its own company name, or “U.S.”!). And I would gladly have sent them anywhere to be examined by a third party first.
I don’t think anyone here is saying that actual counterfeit items should never be destroyed. Just that the process for doing so should involve actual INVESTIGATION or EVIDENCE of some sort, especially when it’s an antique and things are a lot murkier than they are for a set of bootleg DVDs.
January 3, 2012 at 10:50 pm
I played the violin for a year or so and couldn’t get a handle on it. But I still have my sister’s violin I used. I would NEVER think of destroying an instrument even if I thought it was counterfeit. Whoever came up with that fine print needs to get their head stuck in a tuba.
January 3, 2012 at 11:21 pm
Is this some kind of sick joke? I quit Paypal after the whole scandal where people where charged thousands for the OX S Lion upgrade. That alone was a huge fuck up. But then, they have to ruin Christmas for dozens of families, and then continue to add insult to injury? But OH no, they can’t even stop there? THEY HAVE TO START DESTROYING PEICES OF HISTORY?
There’s not even a reason to go about destroying property. There wasn’t even a fair investigation to prove if it was a fake or not, this was a blantant violation of moral! How could any sensible human POSSIBLY agree to destroy a hand crafter violen over a label dispute? Quite Simply, they can’t.
I can’t tell what has my blood boiling more, the jackasses at paypal who who sit on their asses and laugh at others misury while they reel in all the cash, or completely dispicable monster who agreed to destroy a wonderful instrument, and blow this poor Erica out of a Violen, and $2500!
January 3, 2012 at 11:27 pm
I myself am having an issue with Sears selling me an amazon tablet online, which came from a house in California, (a house that has over 4 stories, and 1500 sq ft of land mind you) and when I discovered the tablet was faulty and asked for a refund, Sears said I had to return the product to the seller, and wait for them to confirm that the product had been returned, and send them back the money. HOWEVER Sears can not get in contact with these people, and of course they aren’t planning to notify them if the product is returned. So in short, I’m out a few hundred dollars due to a scam myself, and this kind of bullshit being pulled on other people makes me absolutely sick.
But seriously, DESTROYING A VIOLIN? What a bunch of heartless bastards! May they all rot in hell!
January 3, 2012 at 11:30 pm
Take paypal to small claims court. The object could’ve been returned to the seller, but instead was destroyed. It’s an obvious case of idiocy and destruction of property.
January 3, 2012 at 11:41 pm
lawyers aren’t allowed in small claims court, and they’ll have to send an executive to dispute the case. It’s likely that they’ll give you your money back rather than go to court.
Also, why hasn’t anyone called a news station about this?
January 4, 2012 at 6:39 pm
Unfortunately, the value of the violin may be enough that it exceeds the limits for small claims. It also gets tricky if more than one state is involved.
January 3, 2012 at 11:36 pm
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January 4, 2012 at 10:11 am
Damn. I guessed the victim blaming would come sooner in the pool. No toaster for me.
January 4, 2012 at 6:35 pm
Who said it was in an online auction? I must have missed that!
I sell online. No matter where you sell – Ruby Lane, ebay, Etsy, your own website – paypal has made a name for themselves as the accepted form of payment. A lot of buyers get nervous and don’t trust you if you say that you don’t take paypal. Not every buyer wants to give out credit card information directly or wire transfer money to an unknown to them seller.
January 3, 2012 at 11:41 pm
From Reddit:
This is because many are ignorant of the violin world, and it’s even more so confusing to one who has no knowledge other than Stradivari.
The history is very deep, and copying the masters down to a tee has been an art form for centuries; I’ve owned a violin from the early to mid 18th century (1700-1750) that was a bench copy of Andrea Amati, the supposed inventor of the modern string family. ninety-nine times out of a hundred, the label is just a part of the art, or was put inside years after the violin was made.
The fine violin world is a crazy place, and one must study the intricacies to even stand a chance to understand it. There are hundreds upon hundreds of families who made violins and tens of thousands of known makers. Labels get switched around, during WWII many of the fine violins that Jewish musicians owned had their labels taken out or fake labels put in, to protect them from Hitler taking them and putting them in collection.
January 4, 2012 at 12:36 am
I would never spend that much on a violin. I don’t play the violin. I hardly know anything about violins and I STILL would not destroy even the shittiest, cheapest violin on the planet. There are no words big enough for all horrendous this is. I’m sick.
January 4, 2012 at 12:36 am
all=how see i can’t even think straight.
January 4, 2012 at 12:43 am
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January 4, 2012 at 10:18 am
So you’re saying the buyer destroyed a different violin and took a picture of that one? How would he have found the exact, 80 year old label that was inside Erica’s violin in order to stage the photo?
January 4, 2012 at 12:14 pm
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January 4, 2012 at 1:30 pm
Paypal advises (as seen in their policies) buyer to destroy an antique violin and people get upset. Yeah, that’s a good thing.
January 4, 2012 at 12:57 am
I had to create an account just to tell you guys, and also ask about, the fact that I can’t seem to close our Paypal. I’ve been trying since the last Paypal $hitstorm, and still have no luck.
First it asks me to confirm our account (one is an old account linked to our old bank). When I dig up that info and enter it, it still won’t let me close saying that I can’t close while there are billing agreements. I cancel all those and tried to close and I get the same error.
That is seriously effed up. How can they get away with basically preventing me from closing our account? Does anyone have any suggestions?
January 4, 2012 at 6:43 pm
At the very least you should be able to detach your bank account (which will switch your account to unverified). You may have to contact your bank to tell them that PayPal is no longer authorized to withdraw funds from your account too.
In other words, you may be stuck with the account, but there’s no reason that PayPal should continue to have access to your money.
January 4, 2012 at 1:20 am
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January 4, 2012 at 1:35 am
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January 4, 2012 at 1:43 am
From the FAQ:
Now just settle down.
January 4, 2012 at 1:43 am
These days I don’t use eBay for selling anything valuable, because there are loonies out there who buy and then complain – crazy people. And Paypal NEVER takes the part of the seller. I am afraid that the best thing is to put a valuable item into a real life auction. Sometimes it might not get as much money as on ebay, but it’s the only way to get protection against nutcases.
January 4, 2012 at 2:03 am
what on earth am i missing here
WHY COULDNT THE VIOLIN BE RETURNED TO THE SELLER??? AND THEN THE REFUND GIVEN???
I DO NOT GET IT!! WHY DID IT HAVE TO BE SMASHED TO PIECES???
January 4, 2012 at 2:23 am
That bit itself is the only clear part to me. PayPal have quite a strong policy that all fake items be destroyed rather than returned so that no one else gets sold the fakes.
The confusing part, and what I think we all want more detail on, is how exactly PayPal came to the conclusion it was fake. It’s not clear from the original article.
The main part that irks most I think is where the OP states “the buy was quite proud of himself”. If true, that is a disgrace, but I would like some proof before judgement.
January 4, 2012 at 8:53 am
I suspect there is more to this story. Just reading between the lines, I don’t think the buyer destroyed the violin and sent a picture to the seller because the buyer hates violins. That doesn’t make sense. I think discussions between the seller and buyer must have gone south and the buyer had a real grudge against the seller. None of which makes this “resolution” right, of course, but I would still love to get all three sides of this story. In particular I’d want to hear what sort of resolution the seller offered to the buyer, if any.
January 4, 2012 at 2:24 am
As a life-long violin player, I find this the unforgivable sin, and it makes me sick to my core. I simply cannot understand what would possess anyone to destroy something so wonderful. Surely the person who bought the violin in the first place was looking for a nice instrument and understood its unique value…how the hell could anyone do that?? Violins are like eggs…people immediately treat them carefully, whether it sounds like a cigar box with strings or a Strad.
This is horrible all the way through.
January 4, 2012 at 4:29 am
I’m horrified that anyone could be so destructive to such a beautiful object. Is the seller absolutely certain that the destroyed violin is the one he sold? Lots of opportunity for fraud here on the buyer’s part. RIP little violin.
January 4, 2012 at 4:33 am
This turns my stomach in a big way. I use PayPal for my business but I’d like to switch to something else. Any one know of any alternatives, anything that works with Etsy?
January 4, 2012 at 6:45 pm
I’ve switched to WePay for my freelance business, but I don’t know if it works with Etsy. Knowing Etsy, probably not.
January 4, 2012 at 4:53 am
Oh and this is great, taking over the world…
http://news.yahoo.com/report-yahoo-may-name-paypal-exec-ceo-114602565.html
January 4, 2012 at 2:54 pm
Oh gods. Well, it might be interesting to see how long it lasts? Maybe he’ll drive Yahoo into the ground and instill a bunch of asinine rules and appoint idiot employees? For some reason this reminds me of George Carlin saying that life is just a ticket to a freak show, sit back and watch. And if you live in the United States, you got a front row seat.
January 4, 2012 at 5:05 am
So there were 3-4 choices – mail back to seller, mail to paypal, mail to third party, destroy…. and they immediately said destroy? WTF? I could understand something that was worth less than the shipping, but something that sold for $2500? WTF!?!??!?!?!?!?!?
So angry.
January 4, 2012 at 5:14 am
WTF? I think Paypal needs their own “regrety” site. Just exactly what kind of crack are they smoking???
January 4, 2012 at 7:12 am
http://www.paypalsucks.com
They Do!
Just…if you use Ebay, or anything else that you need PP for, don’t use the same username. They have a bit of an issue with freezing peoples accounts.
January 4, 2012 at 5:19 am
I doubt anyone will read this, but:
As much as I am shocked at the loss of the violin, especially with the history it has, I have to say why for goodness sake, would you use Paypal of all things to sell something like this?
There has to be better ways to sell antiquities than to risk it on something like Paypal. Paypal in my mind is used for small dollar transactions (under 100.00) and for things that if they are damaged or destroyed, its not the end of the world.
Paypal will always take the most extreme judgment in the favor of the buyer. Always. Most especially on high dollar transactions. Its easier for them, and that’s how they are trained.
Lesson learned I guess.
January 4, 2012 at 7:11 am
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2082060/PayPal-eBay-buyer-destroy-2-500-violin-deemed-counterfeit.html
The story’s hit the UK.
Hopefully, if enough people get behind it, something might be done about their shit policies.
January 4, 2012 at 3:04 pm
Well I guess there’s always hope, but Paypal has a long rich history of NOT correcting problems. If they make changes, it’s only to benefit themselves. It was obvious from the Great Christmas Debacle that Paypal does not do altruism, nor are they about making things easy for their clients. Changes are made in order to suit their bottom line, not for the comfort and ease of customers.
January 4, 2012 at 7:30 am
I’m just going to curl up in a corner with Alice (my baby violin) and cry. How can any “musician” willingly smash a musical piece of art AND boast about it?
January 4, 2012 at 7:31 am
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January 4, 2012 at 10:07 am
You can escalate the claim immediately, without a waiting period, if the item is above a certain price point ($2500 in fact).
January 4, 2012 at 2:04 pm
Did you really type “spell the beams” when you meant “spill the beans?” Really? Thasfunny.
January 4, 2012 at 4:35 pm
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January 4, 2012 at 7:31 am
wow, couldnt you find a solicitor who would take on the case to court. there maybe one out there who would. or contact someone in the violin world.
January 4, 2012 at 7:34 am
I honestly feel like crying seeing such a beautiful antique being smashed up by a pair of fraudsters, ‘cos both the moronic buyer and PayPal are clearly in on this whole fucking scam together X___X
I can’t decide who to hate more – right now the buyer gets my vote. There was absolutely NO need to pursue that line of action, all the braindead motherfucker had to do was return it to the seller and I’m sure she would have refunded him with no problem, but no, he had to be a complete cunt about it X___X
January 4, 2012 at 7:36 am
Oh, and I do understand that PayPal have that stupid “destroy fakes” policy, but the buyer must have reported that it was a fake to PayPal to force that line of action to be demanded…? Yep, guy’s a prick ¬_¬
January 4, 2012 at 8:59 am
Isn’t it possible the buyer DID try to return the violin to the seller but the seller was a cunt about it? We only have one side of the story and even that side is really brief–a couple paragraphs and an “after” photo. We can be pretty sure Paypal is the cunt in this case as they always are, but we have no background about the conversations between the seller and the buyer.
January 4, 2012 at 10:20 am
I agree. This is why I’m always hesitant to villify anyone based on partial information, especially online information.
January 4, 2012 at 8:10 am
Anyone else try posting on PP’s FB wall? I commented and it was deleted immediately.
January 4, 2012 at 8:33 am
If it’s negative publicity, of course they’ll delete it. They have website administrators watching for that kind of posting. Here is a thought, create your own Facebook page that allows for negative feedback, leave it public so they can find it in a search and you might actually get them to respond to you. There is nothing legally they can do to you. If you do it right you’ll make a page that shows concerns for a revamp of their Terms of Service.
January 4, 2012 at 8:47 am
They probably haven’t been deleted – you have to select ‘everyone’ at the top of the wall as by default it only shows messages from paypal.
January 4, 2012 at 8:16 am
I think the part that everyone is overlooking here is that PAYPAL DOES NOT HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO ORDER THE DESTRUCTION OF GOODS. PERIOD.
This is an actual legal matter. No matter how you feel about paypal or if you think paypal was right or wrong, or whatever. ONLY A JUDGE CAN ORDER THE DESTRUCTION OF GOODS IN CASE LIKE THIS.
January 4, 2012 at 8:47 am
Citation? It seems to me that Paypal can order the buyer to dance naked around a tree. The buyer can choose to comply or not. The question is whether the seller has any recourse.
January 4, 2012 at 9:24 am
Presumably, the buyer has to comply with Paypal if they want their money back, otherwise there would be nothing stopping them keeping the goods and getting a refund. For all we know the buyer was required to send photographic evidence to both PP and the seller?
Its still a completely stupid rule but I’d prefer to hear the buyers side of things before making any judgements.
The more I think about this whole thing the more I wish we had the full story.
If the seller had it appraised then that should have been sufficient evidence that the violin was a genuine whatever it was, or as old as claimed, so how did this situation escalate? Was the description erroneous? Were the appraisal documents not sent/recieved?
What third party decided that the violin was counterfeit, and who appointed them? Where is their evidence?
Basically, we need a hell of a lot more information about this.
January 4, 2012 at 9:28 am
I would also like to know all three sides of the stories (the buyer’s, the seller’s, and Paypal’s). The fact that this violin was destroyed is a tragedy and it sounds like that’s firmly on Paypal, but as far as the buyer and seller I’m not willing to make any judgments without hearing both sides.
January 4, 2012 at 3:49 pm
Even if it was a counterfeit, many are worth more than they claim to be, particularly if they were in WWII Europe. There are still many Strataveri floating around with other manufacturer’s labels and are worth more in such condition as it’s part of their history.
The rule needs changed to new items only.
January 4, 2012 at 8:17 am
Alternatives to paypal: http://www.wired.com/geekdad/2011/12/5-alternatives-to-paypal/all/1
January 4, 2012 at 8:22 am
Here ya go people. This is the paragraph on Pay Pal’s terms of service. The act of destruction was a grievous act, but in the same token we have to ask ourselves if the seller disclosed the fact that the label was inconsistent with the instrument. Here is the paragraph.
January 4, 2012 at 8:26 am
PayPal will generally require the buyer to ship an item that the buyer claims is SNAD back to the Seller (at the buyer’s expense), and PayPal will generally require a Seller to accept the item back and refund the buyer the full purchase price plus original shipping costs. In the event a Seller loses a Claim, the Seller will not receive a refund on his or her PayPal or eBay fees associated with the transaction. If you lose a SNAD Claim because the item you sold is counterfeit, you will be required to provide a full refund to the buyer and you will not receive the item back (it will be destroyed).
January 4, 2012 at 8:29 am
Had the seller stated that the label was not consistent with the instrument in question, this could have been totally avoided. It’s a sad situation for the instrument itself, but the seller should have known before the sale what the situation could have turned in to. ALWAYS READ THE FINE PRINT! DON’T JUST CLICK THE “AGREE” BUTTON.
January 4, 2012 at 12:20 pm
Ignorantly agreeing to an illegal clause in someone’s TOS does not give them the right to act illegally. One would HOPE that destroying someone’s property is illegal, even for a large corporation.
January 4, 2012 at 8:39 am
Deleted my Paypal account. What does paypal soon
January 4, 2012 at 8:52 am
wow. just wow. i dont have anything to say that will be new or different from the previous comments. but this post did drive me to shut down my paypal account. i had a dollar left in there. they said that because i had less than $1.50 in my acct, i wouldn’t be seeing a check. because apparently that’s not my money. wow.
January 4, 2012 at 9:01 am
The story has been picked up by mainstream UK press – Daily Mail, Mirror websites. Will have a look if it appears in the printed press tomorrow. Mail at least have approached Paypal for comment.
January 4, 2012 at 9:04 am
After PayPal instituted the 21-day hold for some eBay sellers (with no good reason in my case as my eBay account has a 100% satisfaction rating), I stopped using them. I did not delete the account, but this sad story prompted me to do just that.
In the comments section, asking why I was closing my account, I wrote “I do not do business with brainless cretins.” And linked to this article.
January 4, 2012 at 9:27 am
To the seller:
There is a relatively easy and very low cost legal approach that is likely to come out in your favor. Due to the amount of the sales transaction file a claim against PayPal in small claims court. It will cost you almost nothing. In many states you can request 3x the monetary damages. It’s a court case and they must appear or lose with a default judgement against them. If they appear I suspect you are likely to win. Just because they have claimed the right to have the item destroyed does not mean they can do so with impunity. Big diference. They likely have a clause that you can’t sue them and must arbitrate or worse yet you waive all rights but let the judge decide if that holds water. For probably $40-$100 you can have a case that is likely to be in your favor. A great way to exert your rightful legal muscle for the damages you suffered without spending 50x what the item was worth.
January 4, 2012 at 9:29 am
For anyone who might be interested, I created a Facebook page that might help in this cause as well as any other valuable items that might be getting destroyed due to bad wording in the PayPal terms of Service. I think if enough of us stand up for this we might be able to get them to reword the TOS.
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Should-Paypal-Re-evaluate-Their-Terms-of-Service/206358799455377?sk=wall&filter=2
January 4, 2012 at 9:32 am
I’ll dance naked around a tree, but someone else will have to play the violin. I would never even attempt it.
January 4, 2012 at 9:33 am
This makes me want to go hug my flute. And it’s not even an antique heirloom flute.
I don’t understand how someone could do this. I don’t even understand how someone could tell someone ELSE to do this.
My heart is sad =/
January 4, 2012 at 9:45 am
And this is from the same company who refused to refund me my money on a pair of pants that the bitchface buyer didn’t send out until several days after the agreed upon date (of which I had proof via emails), pants that my husband needed for our wedding…pants that didn’t arrive until after we were on our honeymoon. Pants that had to be replaced so my husband wasn’t standing at the alter in his unders…
January 4, 2012 at 9:53 am
now published online by the Guardian (a broadsheet UK newspaper) and the article history indicates it will be in the printed copy on Thursday… Paypal going to have to answer to this now, another PR disaster, how many more before they learn??
January 4, 2012 at 10:38 am
Yep, I was just going to say the news has officially crossed the pond: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2082060/PayPal-eBay-buyer-destroy-2-500-violin-deemed-counterfeit.html
January 4, 2012 at 10:39 am
I know its all been covered ^ in past comments, but I am totally dumbfounded. As a seller on eBay and through my retail store and personal collections, this makes me sick. This is the most ludicrous thing (right up there with the donation debacle) I have ever heard. This just condones and promotes fraud. Again, why couldnt he just send it the fuck back!!!
January 4, 2012 at 10:42 am
I am so appalled that I was compelled to register just to post a comment. I emailed PayPal right away and asked them just how stupid they are.
I hope the seller sues Paypal and forces them to change this policy where they can order a disputed item to be destroyed. If it’s a disputed item then ownership is right away undetermined and so no one has the right except the courts to order that said item be destroyed.
January 4, 2012 at 11:18 am
I also registered just to voice my disgust.
January 4, 2012 at 10:45 am
I don’t believe there’s enough here to substantiate the claim. Where’s the email from PayPal affirming the Significantly Not As Described (SNAD) claim? (see section 3 of the PayPal User Agreement for the full definition of SNAD and then see section 7.3 of the PayPal User Agreement that describes what a Buyer may be required to do to substantiate a claim.) If the Seller has documentation and provided documentation that the violin was “real” then the Seller would have legal action they could take against both Buyer and PayPal. And if the story is true, I hope she did. However, if the Seller falsified documentation, then PayPal as both escrow agent and arbiter would have legal and fiduciary responsibilities to act within the law of said jurisdictions, which may require the destruction of “counterfeit” products. All parties are required to act in good faith; and I don’t see PayPal taking on liabilities unnecessarily and without legal documentation. just sayin
January 4, 2012 at 11:00 am
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
January 4, 2012 at 2:30 pm
And you have come to this conclusion…how?
January 4, 2012 at 2:32 pm
Yeah…brain damage. My previous comment was meant to be in reply to manusferrea’s absurd statement that “…on face value, the Seller sold an item that was counterfeit.”
Dude, did you read the full original post? Including the part that mentions how there’s really no such thing as a “counterfeit” violin?
January 4, 2012 at 3:05 pm
January 4, 2012 at 10:47 am
I’m going to just put this out there:
http://consumerist.com/2008/06/all-the-secret-paypalebay-email-addresses-and-phone-numbers-you-could-ever-want.html
Both my wife and I have canceled out paypal accounts
January 4, 2012 at 10:49 am
And when I’m not at home I’m going to send a polite but strongly worded message to some of those email addresses.
January 4, 2012 at 10:54 am
This policy is obviously made to protect venders from having items that are mass produced ruled defective, and then demand refunds but don’t get rid of the object. It does nothing to protect private venders that provide on of a kind works or antiquities. That’s extremely difficult on those venders that can’t afford legal fees to deal with things like this.
January 4, 2012 at 10:57 am
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
January 4, 2012 at 2:38 pm
I don’t know enough about how violins are sold to judge her based on that statement.
I do know that a violin is not a worthless object. Labels are in dispute all the time but the object itself is still a valuable instrument. In this case, the object was also an antique, which can even add value.
January 4, 2012 at 2:42 pm
The point, I think, is that while it may not be a valuable antique or a Strad or something worthy of a museum, it is still a beautiful, playable instrument, and to destroy it rather than return it is to destroy what is, essentially, a work of art.
January 4, 2012 at 11:04 am
There has been some pretty sick shit on Regretsy…but this has been the only time a photograph posted on here has given me knots in my stomach.
They didn’t destroy a fake…they destroyed an instrument that is a relic of history.
Even if you use the argument that it was a counterfeit…it’s a 150 year old counterfeit and shows the care a luthier had in recreating a master.
Paypal has hit a sour note!
January 4, 2012 at 11:10 am
Erica (please pass this on to Erica) – I am an attorney, so I make this comment with professional background – if your luthier authenticated the violin, you have a very good case to take Paypal to small claims courtto have them reimburse you your $2500. Frankly, just telling Paypal that you are headed in that direction should be enough incentive for them to reimburse you the $2500, because it would cost them far more to fight it, and way *way* more in bad PR. You don’t need a lawyer for this (in fact most small claims courts forbid lawyers). If you don’t want the money back for yourself, donate it to a charity, like a kids’ violin school.
January 4, 2012 at 11:16 am
Now on Boingboing: http://boingboing.net/2012/01/04/paypal-if-you-dont-like-the.html
January 4, 2012 at 11:17 am
I know little about music or violins, but this post has made me a little sick. If the seller is willing to take the item back, why have it destroyed? Disgusting waste.
January 4, 2012 at 11:18 am
Probably already been covered. tl;dr
I think the issue here is that PayPal took the buyers word that it was counterfeit and didn’t do anything to authenticate the buyers claim. In any case, the buyer shouldn’t be allowed to simply say “this is fake” and have PayPal be like “ok, destroy it and you will get your money back” PayPal should have had someone investigate the claim and authenticate the violin, then pass judgement on the case. Especially with a antique such as this, or anything worth over a certain amount on money, say $500. IMO
January 4, 2012 at 11:23 am
Yep, this is a fine example of why it’s such a bad idea to do business with a company that controls both halves of the transaction (Paypal and eBay are now two sides of the same company.)
January 4, 2012 at 9:04 pm
I think it is safe to assume that some idiots that work at PayPal (the same idiots that told April she couldn’t raise money for kids, but raising money for sick cats was totally ok) advised the buyer via phone and email to do this terrible thing, probably not giving it much thought, not seeing the claim or instrument, not really giving a damn and now we have a destroyed antique/piece of art/priceless heirloom.
January 4, 2012 at 11:46 am
In the past they got caught instructing ebay people to send the alleged fakes (mostly knockoff designer name stuff) to a service for “destruction”.
Turned out they didn’t destroy them, they sold the fakes to scammers, who in turn sold them (as genuine) again on ebay. True story.
Where Do eBay Fakes Go to Die?
http://www.auctionbytes.com/cab/abn/y08/m07/i02/s01
Never, EVER use ebay and/or paypal. Sleazy as it gets.
January 4, 2012 at 11:56 am
This is absolutely appalling! I don’t understand why major companies like these have no respect or value of such belongings. I have had similar issues with HSBC as well. However, having your violin destroyed is heartbreaking.
January 4, 2012 at 11:57 am
It makes me think of Black Books.
Snooty bookshop customer “Are these real leather ?”
Insane bookseller “They’re real Dickens”.
Not as described does not equal counterfeit. Counterfeit goods are made to imitate something else, and if they infringe copyright and/or trademark will never be legal to sell. Goods not as described may be perfectly legal to sell, and valuable in their own right, even if the specific sale needs to be canceled and refunded. In the second instance the goods should clearly not be destroyed, though ebay could reasonably suspend accounts if people repeatedly misrepresent items in this way.
It would possibly help if paypal had a clear definition of counterfeit goods that clearly included reference to breach of copyright/trademark given that is the only situation that would lead to destruction of items being used to avoid legal issues.
It would also help of course if they weren’t idiots who pretended to be experts when they aren’t.
January 4, 2012 at 12:13 pm
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January 4, 2012 at 2:22 pm
I’m not sure who you’re talking to, but no one here sold this violin. This was submitted by a reader.
But it works like this:
You sell something over $2500 via Paypal.
You and the buyer get into a dispute, and a complaint is filed.
Paypal freezes the payment while they investigate.
If they decide against you, they return the money to the buyer.
They may also tell the buyer to destroy the merchandise and show proof before they give him his money back.
In that case, you’re out the merchandise and the money, and you can eat a bag of dicks/
January 4, 2012 at 2:45 pm
I think a lot of people unfamiliar with paypal are unaware of the fact that paypal can freeze your account at will, making it impossible to get your funds transferred to your bank account. As soon as the seller decided that the violin wasn’t what they thought it was, they contacted paypal who froze the funds. In this case, if I’m understanding correctly, no one received money AND the violin was destroyed because Paypal took it upon themselves to decide the violin was a danger to humanity. Feel free to send them a fruit basket in thanks.
January 4, 2012 at 12:26 pm
Does anyone have any experience with dwolla.com? I.E. is it effective? Reputable? International?
January 4, 2012 at 12:58 pm
The breeder we have selected to purchase our kitten from uses paypal. Should a dispute arise, will we be required by Paypal to destroy our kitten in order to receive a refund?
January 4, 2012 at 3:03 pm
Well yes. Of course. If your breeder claims it’s purebred, and it’s a mix, it must be destroyed to prevent breeding even MORE dangerous mix-breed cats!
(I’m being sarcastic, and it STILL nauseated me to type that. Must hug all my mutt-kitties now.)
January 4, 2012 at 9:08 pm
I say this with respect, but 1 in 600 pets finds a home. 599 get euthanized in this country. That is 599 dead cats and dogs. Stop supporting breeders and save an animal from a pound, ok?
January 4, 2012 at 9:09 pm
Oh, saw the all-mutt sentence. Thank God. Sorry and carry on.
January 4, 2012 at 1:11 pm
http://idle.slashdot.org/story/12/01/04/1512247/paypal-orders-buyer-of-violin-to-destroy-it-for-a-refund
This is also being talked about on Slashdot now I believe as a result of it coming up on Regretsy. I think news of this will circulate far and wide as well as the Christmas debacle.
January 4, 2012 at 2:22 pm
Oddly enough, I think it will go wider.
January 4, 2012 at 1:41 pm
More international news – seems like Regretsy has fans in the higher ranks of one of the biggest German news magazines
http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/netzpolitik/0,1518,807129,00.html
January 4, 2012 at 2:29 pm
My poor damaged brain hurts, both from the horror of the original post and from trying to wade through the numerous comments.
Suffice it to say that I’m the child of two musicians, and the friend of many more. I’ve shared this on my Facebook as well as emailed every musically-inclined person I have in my address book, asking everyone to pass it on and do whatever they can to shame PayPal as publicly as possible.
It just depresses me that no matter how big a stink we manage to raise, the original damage has been done. The world will forever be minus one lovely antique instrument. I have no sufficiently vitriolic words for this travesty.
January 4, 2012 at 2:49 pm
What pisses me off here is that I can predict PayPal’s subsequent apology and lengthy tangled web of an explanation and, I don’t know, donation of violins to poor kids in recompense, but once again it will be a case of PayPal feeling bad simply because they were rooted out and shamed into apologizing. How many of us PayPal consumers have gotten the burlap shaft with no recourse simply because our story isn’t dramatic enough to cause viral outrage?
I applaud Regretsy’s work to bring these shitty things to light, but it just makes me angrier that Paypal continues to rake in the cash with their asinine policies. When will a challenger appear to take these suckers down for good?
January 4, 2012 at 2:58 pm
I “know people” who buy and sell hobby-related things through various forums, who call their PayPal transactions “gifts” to avoid this kind of crap. The threat of BAD REP on the forums keeps the majority honest.
Too bad that’s 100% useless information for most online buyers and sellers…
January 4, 2012 at 2:58 pm
Whenever I look at that photo, it sends chills up and down my spine, and not in a good way. And I am not ashamed to admit that I did in fact cry. This is a monstrosity.
Maybe I should change my name to ICryForViolins and give PreyPal InRetrospectThatWasStupid. Seems to me like they could use a reminder every few minutes.
January 4, 2012 at 3:23 pm
The smashing was most definitely wrong, but the person who reported this is being very vague in details.
Once again, I’m not saying the buyer was right in any way, but what’s to say there wasn’t a discrepancy sourcing from the seller?
Maybe it’s just me, but the lack of details raises a flag for me.
January 4, 2012 at 3:25 pm
It’s also on geek.com: http://www.geek.com/articles/news/paypal-orders-destruction-of-antique-violin-by-buyer-2012014/
January 4, 2012 at 3:39 pm
Items that made it through WWII Europe are more commonly mislabeled due to smuggling such items. Many “counterfeits” are worth a great deal more than they are labeled as because they are very well known items relabeled as locally made or by a less desirable maker. Ebay is populated by corporatist morons.
January 4, 2012 at 4:08 pm
I want to go home and hug my violin right now. Almost cried :<
Paypal are supreme fuckwits.
January 4, 2012 at 4:32 pm
January 4, 2012 at 4:57 pm
The Week magazine: http://theweek.com/article/index/223010/good-day-bad-day-january-4-2012
January 4, 2012 at 5:00 pm
Scratch that. The story was removed! (So were a couple of others, I think they just shortened the article, but who knows?)
But I still had the window open. It said:
BAD DAY FOR: Precious antiques
A man who disputed the authenticity of an antique French violin he purchased through PayPal was reportedly told he would need to destroy the instrument to get a refund. He did — only to discover that the instrument was indeed authentic, and worth $2,500. [Business Insider]
January 4, 2012 at 5:02 pm
The [Business Insider] link is http://www.businessinsider.com/paypal-violin-destroy-return-refund-2012-1
January 4, 2012 at 6:56 pm
What. the. ACTUAL. FUCK?!?!?!
My heart literally skipped a beat when I saw that photo. I’m a musician (although not a violinist) and the thought of the deliberate destruction of any musical instrument is anathema to me.
Please, shall we blow up Paypal’s Facebook account again? Because this is utter, utter fuckery, and not of the good kind.
January 4, 2012 at 7:19 pm
“Looking into the matter”:
A euphemism for waiting until the legal departemnt comes up with the best way to distance themselves from their latest fuck-up.
After PayPal’s disgusting policy stance over Wikileaks last year, I swore off them entirely.
Does anyone here use Dwolla?
January 4, 2012 at 7:21 pm
You know I hate mouse-lag like the next guy. Tried to correct ‘departemnt’ but hit Submit instead >:(
January 4, 2012 at 7:41 pm
What I don’t understand here is… if it was authenticated and/or appraised by a luthier prior to it being sold… weren’t there any papers to establish this? Were they not sent? Or were they, and the buyer was too stupid to read them or figured they must be faked?
I’m wondering if there’s more to this story, or it there’s the possibility that the buyer regretted his purchase and rather than just contact the seller and explain, decided to be a complete turd and go this route.
There’s just so much that’s odd about this story. The policy certainly does need to change, or at least the definitions be revised so that SNAD does not magically equal counterfeit. I’d be interested in hearing more about this… if there are any further updates will they be posted??
January 4, 2012 at 7:43 pm
Add to that – the unfortunate moral of the story is don’t ever sell anything of any real value on eBay. It’s simply not worth the hassle or potential omgwtf. I feel for the seller, really, but perhaps eBay was not the best route to go for this particular item.
January 5, 2012 at 1:28 am
This is what a lot of people are not understanding. It is almost a tradition in violin making to use labels that might not actually indicate the original violin maker, but the maker and model and time period an instrument was replicated from. This is what Erica as explaining- IN VIOLIN BUYING THE LABEL RARELY MEANS ANYTHING! It takes experts to examine an instrument and determine it’s authenticity. But- even if it is determined that the label’s declared maker wasn’t the actual maker, this, in the world of violins, does NOT mean it is a “counterfeit.” This is obviously a complicated matter that this buyer did not get and paypal reps CERTAINLY did not get. This article helps explain this:
http://www.abcviolins.com/labels.html
It takes a lot of expertise to authenticate a violin and Paypal had no business whatsoever taking this on.
January 5, 2012 at 5:59 am
But a lot depends on the phrasing of the auction. There is a big difference between describing it as a Bourguignon Maurice violin and describing it as a violin with a Bourguignon Maurice label. There are a lot of holes in this story.
January 4, 2012 at 7:51 pm
This story sure is getting around!
Was watching the Philip Defranco youtube show today and it was featured on it
http://youtu.be/QvnyNxruCTM
January 4, 2012 at 8:11 pm
My brother has a Paypal account that he uses to accept payment for a line of tutorials. Every now and then, someone will buy them all, download them (we know this, because we track download attempts), then immediately dispute, claiming their account was hacked – and since in these cases the account is generally tied to a foreign bank, Paypal will just side with them. Judging by the fact this has happened a number of times, and that the tutorials my brother sells are highly specialized, it’s highly unlikely all the accounts, or even any of the accounts, have been hacked, it’s obviously just people exploiting the system to rip us off.
January 4, 2012 at 10:40 pm
Wasteful. The most logical route would be to return the violin, but instead Paypal promotes needless destruction. Only in the first world would we consider outright destroying something rather than taking a few minutes to return it and keep it circulating to be used by others. I realize that a violin isn’t one of life’s necessities, but this policy could be applied to anything.